Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[Hermit]

1 hour ago, Grailknight said:

As an Alabama voter, I am happy to see Jones win. The vote broke mostly on urban/rural lines with the larger urban counties carrying Jones. A large minority turnout was also a factor but the biggest thing was the allegations against Moore.

 

http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/page/2017_alabama_us_senate_election_results.html#incart_election

 

Well, barring some horrible recount mix up, it looks like I was wrong. And Lord I am glad I am! 

nice save, Alabamans

[Old Man]

31 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

Still disappointed by the low voter turnout, though. Given the controversy I expected it to be higher. Political fatigue, perhaps.

 

The controversy is what caused GOP voters to stay home. Some of them actually refused to vote for a pedo. 

[Ragitsu]

The race was still way too close, though.

[Hermit]

The Democrats and liberals are having a party.

 

I Hope they keep their celebration in check. This was not Alabamans being Pro-Democrat, this was enough Alabamans being Anti-Moore. Unless Jones has a very good and really wows the state, this is likely his first and LAST  term if the GOP runs anyone better than Moore for the next election for the position. I predict Jones is going to be a bit hemmed in by Realpolitick on some matters if he hopes to have any chance to get reelected. Then again he may go 'damn the torpedoes' and go full tilt and settle for that one term.

 

But then again, I was wrong last night, I could be wrong here. A lot can change in a few years. A chunk of of the generation of the most elderly Alabamans may pass away in those  years (Sorry to be cold blooded about it). and an amazing out pouring of African American voters just showed their strength.and while they were not enough to do make Jones happen by themselves they sure as hell seemed a solid backbone or the effort wouldn't have walked let alone stood. If young people and minorities alike are re--energized for more than a flash in the pan this could indeed be a sea change.

 

But I really do advise against treating this like a Democratic success when it was (IMO) a judgement on Moore.

 

EDIted: Need to remember term was atypical. Doh. Thanks Ternaugh

 

 

[Ternaugh]

I believe that he's been elected to serve the remaining time in the term, meaning that he'll have to defend in 2020.

[Hermit]

Ooop, right. my bad. Corrected. Thanks

[Tech priest support]

Look like mcturtle is pulling another blatant "screw democracy I'm running the government as a republican rubber stamp!” move like he did with Obama's last supreme court nominee.

 

http://verifiedpolitics.com/mitch-mcconnell-just-announced-dirty-underhanded-plan-roy-moore-loses-tonight/

 

Personally I kinda hope jones shows up with several dozen armed Alabama voters and announces as the choice of the people of Alabama he will be voting on the tax bill if he and his supporters have to physically force their way into the senate, push mcturtle aside, remove strange and seat Jones by what ever means necessary.

 

Mcturtle has been a dictator bypassing democracy and imposing republican rule far too long, it's time he was quashed.

[Ragitsu]

4 hours ago, Hermit said:

The Democrats and liberals are having a party.

 

I Hope they keep their celebration in check. This was not Alabamans being Pro-Democrat, this was enough Alabamans being Anti-Moore.

 

4 hours ago, Hermit said:

 

But I really do advise against treating this like a Democratic success when it was (IMO) a judgement on Moore.

 

 

 

We aren't getting over this particular hump until "voting for the lesser of two evils" becomes an antiquated or dare-I-say archaic notion that everyone resists with every fiber of their being because of how utterly repulsive it is.

[Lord Liaden]

IMO the problem is exacerbated by a very long history of bipolar thinking. With only two horses in any race practically speaking, the parties have come to assume that any loss for one automatically means a gain for the other.

 

As it stands the only alternative to not voting for the lesser evil, is not voting at all. But that won't change anything unless everyone does it. In the meantime we may find ourselves stuck with the greater evil.

[Ranxerox]

3 hours ago, Tech priest support said:

Look like mcturtle is pulling another blatant "screw democracy I'm running the government as a republican rubber stamp!” move like he did with Obama's last supreme court nominee.

 

http://verifiedpolitics.com/mitch-mcconnell-just-announced-dirty-underhanded-plan-roy-moore-loses-tonight/

 

Personally I kinda hope jones shows up with several dozen armed Alabama voters and announces as the choice of the people of Alabama he will be voting on the tax bill if he and his supporters have to physically force their way into the senate, push mcturtle aside, remove strange and seat Jones by what ever means necessary.

 

Mcturtle has been a dictator bypassing democracy and imposing republican rule far too long, it's time he was quashed.

 

Before Doug Jones can be sworn in, the election results must be officially certified.  This is normal and it takes time.  When McConnell said that Strange would serve until the end of the session, he wasn't making some big, unconstitutional power grab as your article writer asserted.  He was just looked at the calendar, and stated the realistic facts.  Please avoid linking to articles that are long on hyperbole and short on accurate facts.

 

22 minutes ago, Ragitsu said:

 

 

We aren't getting over this particular hump until "voting for the lesser of two evils" becomes an antiquated or dare-I-say archaic notion that everyone resists with every fiber of their being because of how utterly repulsive it is.

 

All elections are an effort to chose the lesser of two evils or viewed differently chose the greater of two goods.  People  are never black and white, they are always shades of grey and this includes politicians.

[Tech priest support]

From the day President Obama took office Mitch mcturtle vowed to make him a one term president and to obstruct every single action he tried to take. He abused his position and lead the Republicans on a childish tantrum against Obama for 8 years.

 

At one time he raised a bill which Obama decided to support. As soon as Obama supported his bill mcturtle reflexively fillibustered it.

 

His piece da resistance was refusing to allow Obama to appoint a supreme Court justice in his last year, which had zero precedent. Mcturtle has forfeited any and all benefit of the doubt and deserves to be viewed in the worst possible light on every issue.

[Simon]

Someone continues to ignore the rules of this thread.  Last warning.  Bannination is the next step.

[Ragitsu]

2 hours ago, Ranxerox said:

 

All elections are an effort to chose the lesser of two evils or viewed differently chose the greater of two goods.

 

That is precisely what I was getting at. The average Joe/Jane oftentimes holds a different sentiment because the standards we hold our politicians to are low ones (speaking as a US citizen here). Yes, an argument could be made that this is merely a matter of semantics, but the mentality of a voter does reflect the quality of the society they participate in. "I'm choosing between two appealing options" is a far cry from "I'm voting for choice B because choice A is just that much worse."

[Christopher]

1 hour ago, Ranxerox said:

All elections are an effort to chose the lesser of two evils or viewed differently chose the greater of two goods. 

The Primaries are there exactly to elect a good person. But Gerrymandering heavily broke that:

 

Find out if there is a local politican that works to fix it. Support him or her. Maybe you get some decent candidates again.

[Ranxerox]

2 hours ago, Ragitsu said:

 

That is precisely what I was getting at. The average Joe/Jane oftentimes holds a different sentiment because the standards we hold our politicians to are low ones (speaking as a US citizen here). Yes, an argument could be made that this is merely a matter of semantics, but the mentality of a voter does reflect the quality of the society they participate in. "I'm choosing between two appealing options" is a far cry from "I'm voting for choice B because choice A is just that much worse."

 

Here is where the matter of viewing differently that I mentioned comes into play.  Perhaps I have a significantly higher view of politicians than you or maybe I have a lower view of people in general and don't view politicians as harshly as a result, but whatever the case, Nixon and Trump are the only top party nominees of my life time that I consider to be bad people.  All the elections not involving one of the two of them have been matters of choosing the greater good.

 

Ford - Good man. I have nothing negative to say about him.

Carter - An extremely good man, but a poor president.

Reagan - A good man (or an actor who did a good job playing one) but who fell in with a bad crowd

Mondale - Good man.

Dukakis - Good man. I have nothing negative to say about him.

Bush Sr - Good man and tireless public servant, but due to a life of wealth and privilege held a very inflated view of the importance of rich people.

Bill Clinton - A complex figure.  I believe that he really did his best to make the world a better place, but had a deep rooted insecurity due to abandonment by his father and a serious zipper problem.

Bob Dole - Generally a good man though as Speaker of the House he had obviously had to make some compromises over the years.

Al Gore - Like all politicians enjoys the spotlight, but a good man nonetheless.

Bush Jr - A good man, but not really smart enough for the job and his vice president/puppet master was a piece of work.

Kerry - Very ambitious and probably did exaggerate his Vietnam heroic, but still a tireless public servant and a good man.

Obama - Good man.  Perhaps better than we deserved.

Romney - See description for Bush Sr

Hillary Clinton - A complex figure like her husband.  She has fought hard for the people and has done much real good, but life under partisan attack has left her very secretive and guarded.

 

I have little doubt that your mileage differs considerably, but that is my take on the presidential candidates of my life time. 

 

[Lord Liaden]

I found this little story to be a refreshing palate-cleanser to all the bitter partisan politics one is bombarded with these days:  Joe Biden and Meghan McCain Share an Emotional Bipartisan Moment On The View

[Old Man]

[Old Man]

Net Neutrality is dead.  Merry Christmas!

[Hermit]

Wonder if the companies will be dumb enough to get greedy right away, or wait awhile and then screw folks over bit by bit over the next few months?

[Pattern Ghost]

Probably a death of a thousand cuts via "bundles" and the like.

[Doc Shadow]

2 hours ago, Old Man said:

Net Neutrality is dead.  Merry Christmas!

 

Not yet. As I predicted the lawsuits have begun.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/latest-clyburn-blasts-fcc-net-neutrality-repeal-51792629

[Sociotard]

An interesting article on an alternative to Net Neutrality that works well in other countries, and encourages businesses to compete.  Doesn't the party in power talk a lot about how they like free market competition to solve problems?

 

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/12/14/16692318/net-neutrality-local-loop-broadband-internet-access

[Christopher]

3 hours ago, Sociotard said:

An interesting article on an alternative to Net Neutrality that works well in other countries, and encourages businesses to compete.  Doesn't the party in power talk a lot about how they like free market competition to solve problems?

 

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/12/14/16692318/net-neutrality-local-loop-broadband-internet-access

Wait, the US does not even have that?

Well of course it does not. It is something sensible from Europe so for Republicans it is "Socialist Madness" like single payer Healthcare.

 

As for them talking about competition: I think everyone here on this forum is smart enough to see through those lies they use for pushing monopolies. It is the people that still buy that wich are the issues. For me the Democrats will always be the superior party, because they are not to ressitant to learn from literal centuries of European Experience.

[Hermit]

Are you kidding? For all the talk of Free trade and competitive marketplace, the last thing any corporation in the us WANTS is competition. What you have are instead agreed upon chunks of turf in different large swathes between a few. A good metaphor might be having the city you live in cut up by Mafia bosses each claiming they offer protection, and if you complain to the cops about the shake down you find out they've been on the take from the crimelords for a long long time.

[Sociotard]

Donald Trump vows to rebuild the FBI

 

Ousted FBI agent in Mueller probe softened language in Clinton email case

 

This is bad.  There really was partisanship in the FBI, and now the Republicans will feel completely justified forcing their own partisans into the agency "because they do it too".

 

It is like the Filibuster. Each time the Senate flipped party control, the new minority used it more than the previous, over and over, until the rule had to be given more exceptions to let work get done.  Now, each time we get a new party in the Presidency, there will be more ideological purges. Dogmatism and corruption will increase, while competency will diminish.

 

On ‎11‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 9:23 PM, Tech priest support said:

When the enemy is using an effective tactic against you, you may have to reply in kind or be defeated.