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Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)


Simon

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I think the last few weeks have put the last nails in the coffin of the theory that Trump actually is trolling everyone else. He's responding like he's been trolled at every turn. The idea that he is brilliantly distracting everyone from his main goals is entirely at odds with the fact that almost all his goals have faced trouble from both sides of the fence, and that he spends a huge amount of his energy on responding to every action, which is exactly what a troll doesn't do.

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The man is clearly deranged. The fact that virtually the entire Republican Party can't see that obvious truth is truly unnerving.

 

I once read a book that proposed that the political world is dominated by narcissists, who are only in it for themselves, and paranoids, who are obsessed with their own righteousness and with analyzing power structures in their own inevitably skewed way for signs of evils to destroy. Narcissists and paranoids are supposedly forever at war with one another, and it is the job of everyone else to make sure that their balance of power never gets too lopsided.

 

Today, either the narcissists like Trump have harnessed paranoids for their political war machines, or the paranoids like Bannon have harnessed narcissists for their's.

 

There are no more dangerous feedback loops in human politics than this one.

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Another thing to consider is Trump's approval low or not, it might be higher than the approval ratings of everything that is opposing him at the moment. The media war with him (or his war with the media, it's become a chicken and egg thing) hasnt helped people's opinions of the media.

Not to defend the media, but one wonders what they could be doing differently to improve people's opinions of them.

 

 

Anyway, point is, even if your approval rating is 2%, if all your enemies' are 1%, it might not matter a lot. I guess I am a bit frustrated, I've continued to hope the left could rally themselves and become a voice of reason. And I have been driven to utter disappointment. Everyday get turned into a "who can be the craziest" contest. And Trump doesn't win as consistently as you would expect.

Who has been beating Trump at this contest lately? Perhaps I am not watching the correct media?

 

 

On a side note, realizing the millennials will be the leaders in my golden years, hasn't filled me with hope in my future retirement.

They could hardly do worse than the boomers or Gen X.

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Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right.

 

This nation was founded on one principle above all else: The requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences. When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world -- "No, YOU move.

I'll just leave this here. Came across it today on the Internet and it was a good reminder.

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Not to defend the media, but one wonders what they could be doing differently to improve people's opinions of them.

 

 

 

Who has been beating Trump at this contest lately? Perhaps I am not watching the correct media?

 

 

 

They could hardly do worse than the boomers or Gen X.

 

 

What could the media do differently at this point?  In the short term nothing, it has taken years to get to this point.  On the conservative side, it doesn't help at this time 8 years ago, simpleton reporters were asking the President "What enchanted you most about the White House?"

 

No offense, as far as crazy, you obviously missed the whole Berkeley incident, and that Women's March thing (which ironically looked like the left's version of early Tea Party rallies to me)

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What could the media do differently at this point? In the short term nothing, it has taken years to get to this point. On the conservative side, it doesn't help at this time 8 years ago, simpleton reporters were asking the President "What enchanted you most about the White House?"

 

No offense, as far as crazy, you obviously missed the whole Berkeley incident, and that Women's March thing (which ironically looked like the left's version of early Tea Party rallies to me)

Definitely didn't miss the tea party comparison here anyway. I posted comparative photos up thread.

 

The media reference is a little non-nuanced, when you look at what Fox (admittedly the largest non-liberal or centrist media organization) was doing in relation to Obama from 2008-2015. Stewart made a killing just deconstructing their inaccurate and inflammatory rhetoric for years.

 

This is just the continuation of a trend I don't particularly care for, the politicization of media and a move away from journalism. It's just a steady acceleration, so more evident with each subsequent cycle (an admittedly subjective observation).

 

I didn't like it then, and am not a huge fan now. Actual concerning factual issues get lost in the noise, and savvy individuals make use of that to avoid an informed populace.

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Definitely didn't miss the tea party comparison here anyway. I posted comparative photos up thread.

 

The media reference is a little non-nuanced, when you look at what Fox (admittedly the largest non-liberal or centrist media organization) was doing in relation to Obama from 2008-2015. Stewart made a killing just deconstructing their inaccurate and inflammatory rhetoric for years.

 

This is just the continuation of a trend I don't particularly care for, the politicization of media and a move away from journalism. It's just a steady acceleration, so more evident with each subsequent cycle (an admittedly subjective observation).

 

I didn't like it then, and am not a huge fan now. Actual concerning facial issues get lost in the noise, and savvy individuals make use of that to avoid an informed populace.

 

Yeah, no disagreement on much of that.  Fox is a problem in that area, but much of the last 8 years everybody else seemed asleep, and many conservatives do consider it disingenuous that they suddenly wake up now.   The media situation goes back at least to the Lewinsky scandal (if not the Bork-Thomas hearings or even long,long before). It did seem to start getting amped up in the Bush years, then when Obama got in, the conservatives decided to amp it up even more, and now with Trump it gets amped up more.

 

I am also frustrated the conservatives ignore Fox's sins, and the liberals ignore non-Fox outlets. Kind of "yeah, they're biased scum, but they are my biased scum, so I will pretend they aren't biased scum, and claim to everyone they are moral, upright, honest people."  I admit I don't call out Fox as much as I should here, but, there isn't much shortage of people here who will do that.  And I sometimes get in a mode of "If I don't call out the others, who will?"  I really cant say how I should or shouldn't handle that.

 

In any case, the media as a whole, has built this pit for themselves for a generation plus, they cant just say "ehh, forget all that, respect me now".  It seems too much like an alcoholic parent whose problems wrecked your childhood time and again, who now wants you to forgive them because they have been sober for a week.  You have to prove yourself, and hope you are given another chance.

 

I am pretty sick of Trump, the media, and the protestors. I actually was sympathetic to the protestors for awhile, the disappointment would be understandable, if a bit overly-dramatic (this election, I was essentially going to dodge one bullet, to only get hit in the gut by another, no matter who won, so yeah I was a bit disappointed, myself, only with time to prepare because disaster was inescapable reality for me).  But, my sympathy has dried up at this point.  And I don't have tolerance for breaking stuff because you didn't get your way (admittedly I think most of that are the anarchist element doing their thing, but if it is done in your causes' name, you get the blame, the Tea Party and Occupiers can testify to that).  Enough with "not my President", now it is time to pick your battles and figure out how to limit him to 4 years.

 

To be honest, I don't know why I am on this thread.  I am as disgusted as possibly can be towards nearly every political element involved, and keep telling myself to quit posting about politics and be done with it.  But, I keep getting reeled back in, somehow.  Makes me feel like an addict or some sort, myself.

 

Note: By your post, I probably have missed some of your post, as I indicated I tend to phase in and out on this thread,  because I am friggin sick of it all, then come in, try to go cold turkey, see something stupid on the news, have to look at this thread, Vicious cycle.

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I agree that American information media as a whole are to some extent reaping the results of decades of trends: overt and obvious ideological bias by some major outlets, rather than attempting to be as objective as possible; the pursuit to be first to break a story, sometimes at the cost of verification; and above all else, treating news as entertainment first and foremost, rather than information.

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I tend to think of Media Objectivity as about as mythical as the Questing Beast. I don't think it's ever actually been a thing. It's just more obvious now, because the journalists are a bit stupider lately with the rush to be first to print in an internet-driven 24 hour news cycle. Though, the TV-driven 24 hour news cycle directly preceding it wasn't too great either.

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Here's a good piece on Trump's use of "humiliation porn" as both a candidate and a president, and how the blowback could erode part of his base:

http://www.counterpunch.org/2017/02/20/humiliation-porn-trumps-gift-to-his-faithful-and-now-the-blowback/

 

The brutal truth is that humiliated people want to humiliate others in order to temporarily relieve their own feelings of shame.  As one of Altemeyer's "social dominators", Trump instinctively gets that and uses it perfectly.

 

Social dominators tend to have pronounced sociopathic traits. In his book, "Violence: Reflections on a National Epidemic," Psychiatrist James Gilligan argues that contrary to popular opinion, sociopaths are not shameless; in fact, they experience almost nothing but shame. Gilligan believes that, when taken to its extreme, shame shuts down all emotional experiences except, perhaps, for rage. Gilligan worked in a maximum-security penitentiary for many years, counseling people imprisoned for monstrous acts of violence. The prisoners he worked with consistently described themselves as the "living dead", referring to their inability to feel anything besides anger. They backed up these assertions with horrific acts of cruelty and self-mutilation. How could they do such things, Gilligan asks, unless they were in some way emotionally numbed? Each of these prisoners had suffered profound emotional or physical abuse in childhood, and each responded by going on the offensive.

Gilligan uses the prison system to illustrate the strategic use of shame in capitalist societies, drawing attention to the role that institutionalized rape plays in modern penitentiaries. He argues that the purpose of the digital anal rape euphemistically referred to as a "cavity search" isn't really to find concealed drugs, but rather to humiliate prisoners into submission. He also writes that guards turn a blind eye to prisoner-on-prisoner rape because, by dividing prisoners into rapists and rape victims, the prisoners' rage is redirected away from the guards and towards one other. The cost of this strategy is borne entirely by the prison population, whose already compromised humanity is systematically ravaged.

Gilligan believes that the prison system apes the class structure of capitalist society. Just as the guards break the collective strength of the prisoner population by encouraging the stronger prisoners to humiliate and oppress the weaker, so the upper classes preserve their social dominance by encouraging the middle classes to humiliate and oppress the lower classes. The guards and the upper classes both use shame as a weapon in the battle to control their social environment. The victims of prison rape, like the lower classes, are psychologically damaged by the excessive shame they're forced to bear. Relative to other classes, their capacity for positive emotion is greatly impaired, and their risk of developing psychological disorders is dramatically heightened. These problems limit their individual and collective power to fight for social change.

Members of the middle class are terrified of losing their class status and descending into the underclass not only because of the material hardships they would face, but also because of the extreme humiliation accompanying the plunge. People who have learned how to despise the underclass will despise themselves if they fall into it. By condemning vast numbers of people to the economic underclass, economic catastrophes like the ongoing fallout from 2008/2009 create epidemics of shame.

Shame fertilizes hatred. We hate in others what we hate in ourselves, and what we hate in ourselves are usually the emotional needs we’ve psychologically repressed. Our sexual, intellectual, and social maturation depends upon our ability to satisfy those needs. We feel ashamed when our needs go unmet for great lengths of time, which is a common experience among the working class. Such unrelenting shame can make our needs seem like threats to our peace of mind, prompting us to drive them from our conscious awareness. The more we repress our needs, the more our emotional development is stifled, the more frustrated and angry we feel, and the more vengeful our desires become. This, in turn, compels us to repress our needs all the more.

Unacknowledged needs don't disappear. Instead, they re-assert themselves by focusing our attention upon people and practices that remind us of them. These reminders rub salt into our wounds, and so we’re tempted to attack them. Unacknowledged emotional pain doesn't disappear, either; instead, it re-asserts itself at the edge of our awareness, shaping our perceptions. The filth we recoil from in the world around us is often the gore spilling from the wounds we've inflicted upon ourselves. The more mutilated we become, the more loathsomely mangled the world seems to be, and the more we desire its destruction. Psychological repression thereby fuels political violence and oppression.

By leaving people chronically frightened and ashamed, and by encouraging misogyny and contempt for weakness, the psychological trauma inflicted by unrestrained capitalism makes us more susceptible to right-wing authoritarianism and manipulation by people like Trump.  The man has accessed the stockpiles of self-loathing we've been building up in the American underclass and turned it against his enemies--the "elites" in government, the media, and academia whose security, confidence, wealth, and education represent everything his supporters have been denied. 

 

​Again, reason alone won't dent his supporters' faith in the man.  The pain goes way, way too deep for that.

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How is Trump backtracking on the 'What happened last night in Sweden' going ?

Because the BBC and others are pointing out that nothing of consequence happened that would justify him mentioning it.

 

Last I read it looked like he was agreeing with the idea that he was actually referencing a recent Fox News piece that was attempting to tie an increase in crime/violence to immigrants and misspoke.

 

(The scarier idea here being that he's still apparently taking his 'real' security briefings from whatever he watches on cable tv rather than the Country's security/intelligence agencies.)

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I tend to think of Media Objectivity as about as mythical as the Questing Beast. I don't think it's ever actually been a thing. It's just more obvious now, because the journalists are a bit stupider lately with the rush to be first to print in an internet-driven 24 hour news cycle. Though, the TV-driven 24 hour news cycle directly preceding it wasn't too great either.

 

 

The media have never been objective.

 

At best they have been professional enough to check their sources, and occasionally ask tough questions of their own side.

 

But never unbiased. Ever. Not from the beginning.

 

I agree that total objectivity is impossible. Every human being has a perspective which colors his or her assessment of a situation. But in my lifetime I've seen a very noticeable change in approach among the mainstream American media, and I can clearly remember when it was different. The prominent journalists from my youth -- the likes of Walter Cronkite and David Brinkley -- made a conscientious effort to present the facts in as unvarnished a form as possible. Moreover, they articulately and passionately defended both the right and the responsibility of journalists to present the truth of a situation to the public, so they could make informed choices. Too many media figures today make a big deal over trumpeting "the truth," but barely even pretend to mask their biases and agendas.

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Nothing. He would have to betray them personally, in their presense, and laugh at them for believing all his lies.

 

And even then, some of them will not believe it and will try to rationalize as a joke that libtards just don't get.

 

For many of these poor ignorant fools, Trump has replaced God.

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Unless he somehow wins re-election and then tries to amend the Constitution to serve more than ten years.

 

 

But his followers are adamant that amendments cannot themselves be amended (even if that's demonstrably false). How would they cope with the cognitive dissonance necessarily imposed by such altered states of thought?!

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But his followers are adamant that amendments cannot themselves be amended (even if that's demonstrably false). How would they cope with the cognitive dissonance necessarily imposed by such altered states of thought?!

They'd just say "MAGA" and it would all make perfect sense. For a decent chunk of voters on either side it's about their team winning, not the nation as a whole.

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