Michael Hopcroft Posted March 24, 2017 Report Share Posted March 24, 2017 The Republicare debacle does seem to be taking attention away from the Russia investigations, though. Putin has already moved on to trying to get the openly racist right-wing candidate Marine Le Pen elected in France. Maybe he believes that tumult in other "democracies" makes him look better at home. But is there another grand scheme he's pulling, or is he just taking advantage of opportunities that present themselves without really having an objective in mind? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted March 24, 2017 Report Share Posted March 24, 2017 Putin is using the crabs-in-a-bucket strategy--pull everyone else down to your level. Sowing chaos in Western democracies gives him the freedom to invade neighboring countries and project influence elsewhere. He already won in the U.S. when he bought Trump in exchange for election assistance and a piece of Rosneft. Now the State Department is crippled, the rest of the federal government is in total disarray, and Trump is doing his best to wreck U.S. economic influence as well. Why not replicate this winning strategy in France? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted March 24, 2017 Report Share Posted March 24, 2017 Le Pen is on record that she believes French economic sanctions against Russia should be eased. That's probably enough for Putin to consider it worth his effort to cozy up to her, and try to give her the impression of international stature that may help her in the next French presidential election. I don't know that Putin has a grand strategy that this fits into, other than to favor anything that could benefit Russia and himself (assuming he makes a distinction between those two). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted March 25, 2017 Report Share Posted March 25, 2017 The Republicare debacle does seem to be taking attention away from the Russia investigations, though. Oh, don't worry, it's going to have plenty of time in the spotlight relatively soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaspar Hauser Posted March 25, 2017 Report Share Posted March 25, 2017 Putin has already moved on to trying to get the openly racist right-wing candidate Marine Le Pen elected in France. Maybe he believes that tumult in other "democracies" makes him look better at home. But is there another grand scheme he's pulling, or is he just taking advantage of opportunities that present themselves without really having an objective in mind? I suspect that he's attempting to undermine NATO as a military alliance and its member countries' economies in order to have a freer hand to expand into Russia's old sphere of influence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted March 25, 2017 Report Share Posted March 25, 2017 I've heard that repeatedly brought up as Putin's rationale. To be honest, I consider it one of his more understandable motivations. For years NATO has been expanding closer to Russia's borders, as more former Soviet bloc countries move closer to the West not only militarily, but politically and economically. Keeping that region dependent on Russia is an economic as well as cultural imperative. The prospect of NATO creeping closer to Russia is actually a frightening one for many Russians. It's sometimes hard for Americans in particular to grasp the mindset of a people who have been repeatedly invaded over their history, including within living memory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaspar Hauser Posted March 25, 2017 Report Share Posted March 25, 2017 America also rammed Neoliberalism down Russia's throat in the 90s. A lot of Russians see America as the reason they don't have health insurance. In any case, Putin has good reason to see NATO as a threat. I mean, we still need to defend ourselves from the thug before he tears out our collective jugular, but it's not as though this is an unprovoked assault. If we can get out of this without an economic crash, a regression to authoritarian governments throughout the West, or a hot war with Russia it'll be a miracle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted March 25, 2017 Report Share Posted March 25, 2017 Interlude: Lawnmower Boy, TheDarkness and Netzilla 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hopcroft Posted March 25, 2017 Report Share Posted March 25, 2017 "in Seattle, Pot fell dramatically!" WHAM! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iuz the Evil Posted March 25, 2017 Report Share Posted March 25, 2017 So that AHCA vote was hilariously incompetent. It's things like that which keep my hope in America's ability to endure this nonsense alive. (Noted on another site) So to recap the track record so far: Muslim ban: Trump (L, 0-1) Muslim ban II: Trump (L, 0-2) Wiretapping: Trump (L, 0-3) Russia: Trump: (L, 0-4) ACA Trump: (L, 0-5) I'm getting so tired of all this winning. Have they actually managed any actual governance in the past three months? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted March 25, 2017 Report Share Posted March 25, 2017 Don't get complacent. The failure of AHCA was due in large part to massive, organized and sustained grassroots resistance. People calling Congress, showing up at town halls, etc. Surviving and defeating Trumpism is going to take a lot more of that. Doc Shadow, Netzilla and Joe Walsh 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
death tribble Posted March 25, 2017 Report Share Posted March 25, 2017 So let me understand this as a foreigner. Trump plans to repeal Obamacare. He puts a plan to Congress and although he has enough Republican Congress and Senate voters it is they who won't back the bill ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iuz the Evil Posted March 25, 2017 Report Share Posted March 25, 2017 So let me understand this as a foreigner. Trump plans to repeal Obamacare. He puts a plan to Congress and although he has enough Republican Congress and Senate voters it is they who won't back the bill ? Pretty much. There are factions in the GOP that wanted no part of the bill proposed, which was a hastily thrown together piece of garbage despite 6-7 years of talking about doing just this. Was an embarrassing failure on every level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csyphrett Posted March 25, 2017 Report Share Posted March 25, 2017 Plus Mark Meadows and his Freedom Caucus are backed by the Koch Brothers. They (FC and Kochs) want a straight repeal, not none of this law where it apes the ACA but doesn't do anything good. So you have the FC for straight repeal, Ryan's repeal and replace guys, and Repubs who got a call from the AARP and know old people will vote against them in their next election. Trying to appease the FC who never was going to back a replacement plan cost Trump and Ryan the AARP people who might have backed something. And that's not counting the Dems in Congress or the Senate as a whole who might have voted against this thing. If only they hadn't tried to ram this thing through on a budget bill, they might have given themselves more time to fix their problems. CES Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted March 25, 2017 Report Share Posted March 25, 2017 I've heard that repeatedly brought up as Putin's rationale. To be honest, I consider it one of his more understandable motivations. For years NATO has been expanding closer to Russia's borders, as more former Soviet bloc countries move closer to the West not only militarily, but politically and economically. Keeping that region dependent on Russia is an economic as well as cultural imperative. The prospect of NATO creeping closer to Russia is actually a frightening one for many Russians. It's sometimes hard for Americans in particular to grasp the mindset of a people who have been repeatedly invaded over their history, including within living memory. Yeah, that must be tough for people who have been repeatedly invaded, like those in Ukraine, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Finland, Poland, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan and Belarus, Moldova, Transnistra, Romania, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria and Afghanistan. Russia could have joined NATO and eventually the EU, but they didn't want to be part of any organization where they couldn't be top dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted March 25, 2017 Report Share Posted March 25, 2017 Hey, I said it was understandable. Never said it was rational. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vurbal Posted March 25, 2017 Report Share Posted March 25, 2017 So let me understand this as a foreigner. Trump plans to repeal Obamacare. He puts a plan to Congress and although he has enough Republican Congress and Senate voters it is they who won't back the bill ? Well not exactly. You forgot about the part where he publicly admitted that saving face (which he didn't) was more important than the American people. So far I'm not sure if Trump reminds me more of Chevy Chase doing Weekend Update on SNL (I'm the president and you're not) or Eric Cartman. aylwin13 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pariah Posted March 25, 2017 Report Share Posted March 25, 2017 I think the Republican 'plan' to repeal and replace ACA ultimately failed because: A. There was never a 'plan' to begin with; nobody ever really had a clear idea what they wanted other than "Not Obamacare". B. A bunch of GOP Congresspersons suddenly realized that legislation that would result in millions of Americans (read: Angry Voters in 2018) suddenly losing their health insurance was political suicide. It gives me a sliver of hope that maybe there are a few grown-ups in the Republican Party after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hopcroft Posted March 25, 2017 Report Share Posted March 25, 2017 I think the Republican 'plan' to repeal and replace ACA ultimately failed because: A. There was never a 'plan' to begin with; nobody ever really had a clear idea what they wanted other than "Not Obamacare". B. A bunch of GOP Congresspersons suddenly realized that legislation that would result in millions of Americans (read: Angry Voters in 2018) suddenly losing their health insurance was political suicide. It gives me a sliver of hope that maybe there are a few grown-ups in the Republican Party after all. I wonder what this means for some of the other elements of the right-wing platform like gutting Social Security and Medicare. Things like that will really annoy the aging boomers, especially the ones who have not bought into The Gospel According to Ayn Rand (you can actually find a book with that title on Amazon!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iuz the Evil Posted March 25, 2017 Report Share Posted March 25, 2017 Tax cuts strikes me as easier (actual tax reform does not), they'll pass something along those lines where rich folks will finally see the burden of being super wealthy recognized. Joe Walsh 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawnmower Boy Posted March 25, 2017 Report Share Posted March 25, 2017 The Republicare debacle does seem to be taking attention away from the Russia investigations, though. "Good news! No-one is looking at our car crash any more, now that we've crawled out of it and set ourselves on fire!" megaplayboy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pariah Posted March 25, 2017 Report Share Posted March 25, 2017 ....The Gospel According to Ayn Rand (you can actually find a book with that title on Amazon!). But why would you?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted March 25, 2017 Report Share Posted March 25, 2017 I wonder what this means for some of the other elements of the right-wing platform like gutting Social Security and Medicare. Things like that will really annoy the aging boomers, especially the ones who have not bought into The Gospel According to Ayn Rand (you can actually find a book with that title on Amazon!). Gutting those programs has long been Speaker Paul Ryan's budgetary objective, as his route to help rein in the deficit. But President Trump opposes it, because Social Security and Medicare are popular programs with the manufacturing workers who are among his core supporters. I honestly don't see any movement there in the near future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DShomshak Posted March 25, 2017 Report Share Posted March 25, 2017 I will grant, when I saw Paul Ryan's picture in my morning newspaper, I laughed out loud at his deer-in-the-headlights expression. Republican control of government wasn't supposed to be like this! I am not a good liberal. I lack compassion for all those who suffer, and right now I think Ryan is sufferin'. Dean Shomshak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DShomshak Posted March 25, 2017 Report Share Posted March 25, 2017 I've heard that repeatedly brought up as Putin's rationale. To be honest, I consider it one of his more understandable motivations. For years NATO has been expanding closer to Russia's borders, as more former Soviet bloc countries move closer to the West not only militarily, but politically and economically. Keeping that region dependent on Russia is an economic as well as cultural imperative. The prospect of NATO creeping closer to Russia is actually a frightening one for many Russians. It's sometimes hard for Americans in particular to grasp the mindset of a people who have been repeatedly invaded over their history, including within living memory. Well, that fits with the Russian History class I took back in college. Russians collectively have a *gigantic* persecution complex, going all the way back to the Mongol invasion. It doesn't help that Russia is strategically sort of "downhill" from the rest of Eurasia -- very easy to invade, with few natural borders. Which conversely meant there was never any natural limit to Russian pushback and expansion. Never a point where they can say, "OK, now we're safe." Having a long history is kind of a bitch sometimes. Dean Shomshak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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