Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[Pattern Ghost]

57 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

Did you mean, on this website? If so, we have one:   Just type rolleyes bracketed by colons on each side. Or scroll down to the bottom of the emoji drop down list.

 

There it is! I thought we had one, but the search thingie dien't turn it up in the emoji selector. Thanks.

[Old Man]

[Lord Liaden]

This 1990 Trump quote in Playboy explains today perfectly

 

The linked article is an opinion-based analysis, but the actual quotation from Trump speaks so well to his motivations, and explains so much of his actions: "The show is Trump, and it is sold-out performances everywhere."

[death tribble]

On 5/29/2018 at 6:16 AM, Old Man said:

Hoover should be higher than Coolidge

[Old Man]

There's a lot of dudes in the middle there that I'd move around.  Nixon should be lower.  Jackson should be lower.  McKinley should be way lower.  Grant and Monroe should be higher.

 

Other people's opinions may differ, but if so, they're wrong. 

[death tribble]

My reasoning is simple. You don't have a Coolidge Dam but you do have a Hoover Dam.

[Ragitsu]

http://money.cnn.com/2018/05/31/news/economy/united-states-steel-aluminum-tariffs/index.html

[Sociotard]

Hoover joins Carter as evidence: engineers make bad world leaders.

[Old Man]

Wait’ll I get my shot. I’ll show you!

[Lord Liaden]

1 hour ago, Ragitsu said:

http://money.cnn.com/2018/05/31/news/economy/united-states-steel-aluminum-tariffs/index.html

 

Well, Trump said, "Trade wars are good, and easy to win." I guess he has his chance to prove it.

[Sociotard]

I wonder if he saw my little list and took it all wrong. 

[Ternaugh]

3 hours ago, death tribble said:

My reasoning is simple. You don't have a Coolidge Dam but you do have a Hoover Dam.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coolidge_Dam

[Pattern Ghost]

11 hours ago, death tribble said:

My reasoning is simple. You don't have a Coolidge Dam but you do have a Hoover Dam. 

 

I think having one's name on a structure isn't the strongest indicator of success. Witness: Our current office holder.

[death tribble]

8 hours ago, Ternaugh said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coolidge_Dam

Thanks.

 

But who outside the States had heard of it ?

Whereas the Hoover Dam is renowned the world over.

[BoloOfEarth]

Y'know, God has a pretty big rep.  Maybe they should name a dam after Him...

[Sociotard]

First they should name one to honor the tinkers of the world.

[Ragitsu]

Has anyone here been keeping up with politics in California? I find it disturbing that a man who believes in Nazi ideology is able to run at all.

[Iuz the Evil]

44 minutes ago, Ragitsu said:

Has anyone here been keeping up with politics in California? I find it disturbing that a man who believes in Nazi ideology is able to run at all.

We are big on that whole First Amendment thing out here. Crazy left wing state and all that.

 

He can run. Say whatever he wants. And be ridiculed/blown out at the polls. As it should be.

[DShomshak]

One hopes, anyway...

 

Dean Shomshak

[Lord Liaden]

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Most often attributed to Voltaire, but the provenance is questionable.

[Iuz the Evil]

1 hour ago, DShomshak said:

One hopes, anyway...

 

Dean Shomshak

Well, yeah. Definitely.

[RDU Neil]

12 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Most often attributed to Voltaire, but the provenance is questionable.

 

Here is an excellent article that looks at the current state of "freedom of speech" and challenges some of those badly attributed maxims and sacred cows as well. When freedoms are in conflict...

 

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/may/31/how-the-resurgence-of-white-supremacy-in-the-us-sparked-a-war-over-free-speech-aclu-charlottesville

[RDU Neil]

On ‎6‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 3:31 AM, Old Man said:

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/04/where-is-melania-trump-the-raccoons-of-the-resistance-investigate?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+USA+-+Collections+2017&utm_term=277064&subid=24646434&CMP=GT_US_collection

[Hermit]

Warning, long opinionated rant, feel free to skip:

 

Well, that article about the ACLU  saddens me terribly for a multitude of reasons. Sometimes sacred cows aren't just for show, they are pillars of the liberty we cherish. The fact those pillars didn't spring whole cloth all at once like Athena from the skull of Zeus doesn't make them less needful, quite the opposite. America was founded on some very high minded ideals. 

 

And let's get this straight, for most of our history, we failed to reach those goals. That's why they were so crucial. Each time "all men were created equal" was said, someone looked around and said 'what about those men without land?' 'what about the black men?' 'hey, we do mean PEOPLE when we use that universal men comment right? The women are pissed now' and someone struggled to make it so. One rung up the latter to the heights at a time. And sometimes we fall hard.

 

But that doesn't mean it isn't worth reaching for. And instead some folks want give up one freedom because it complicates the pursuit of other freedoms? Well, GOSH, who the heck knew high ideals might lead to complications and difficulties instead of being easy? And once you make it possible to deny freedom of speech for one group, do you really want that precedent ready for expansion and re-use on another group?

 

Understand, I am not saying that the local news needs to show up to every white power rally and treat them with any respect. I'd be satisfied with "I'm Tom Tucker, This just in: Neo-Nazis still bigoted idiots incapable of learning from decency or history, and now the weather"...

 

Has it occurred to anyone that the White Supremacist movement has been making the most of others attempts to control speech? That it is fuel for their recruiting efforts?  How many folks that voted for Trump said they admired that he didn't put up with Political Correctness? and was able to "tell it like it is"?

 

And yet thirty percent (Roughly) of all folks who voted for Trump once voted for Obama? Maybe we shouldn't just disregard it with convenient labels and tell them to shut up, which they clearly feel is happening when any disagreement is labeled as racist or hateful.

 

Honestly, I cringe every time I hear  the phrase "White privilege" Not because I disagree with some parts of the theory. Just looking at the news of the last decade has me thinking that some police will feel a lot more free to abuse minorities than they would a pasty pale type like me. I cringe because 8 times out of ten, I see it used to say 'shut up' or 'you don't get to talk' to someone.

 

It's an attempt by some to rob folks of their voice, and that's just one example of speech control attempts used in many circles.

 

We can't even agree on the definition of some terms anymore, so yeah, kind of need to talk about that.

 

When some racist scumbag white supremacist group sees that? They lick their chops, walk over to the guy who just got shut up, and say "We care. We'll listen to you. We'll give you a voice". Like I said, fuel to the fire.

 

 

Some folks think the solution is to shut down more speech. I think the fix for Free Speech woes is, weirdly, more Free Speech not less and a respect for the RIGHT to speak even, or perhaps especially, by those who speak things we find uncomfortable or down right hateful. Words and speeches people LIKE aren't the ones that NEED protection.

 

Because what's offensive to me may not be offensive to you and vice versa, and when a tide shifts, we need to have those out of favor still have a voice.  Because believe you me, those in power are always eager to shut down opposition and precedent against them last decade becomes precedent for them the next. They will redefine what this or that means if that's what it takes to shut folks down.

 

Now understand, I think Rosanne got her self fired REAL good and is not being censored just because she no longer has a show. I think boycots are a perfectly fine way to protest a company/ business you find in the wrong. Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequence, but you let folks talk in the public square because you respect their rights, even if you don't think they're worth spit.

 

 

[RDU Neil]

43 minutes ago, Hermit said:

 

 

And let's get this straight, for most of our history, we failed to reach those goals. That's why they were so crucial. Each time "all men were created equal" was said, someone looked around and said 'what about those men without land?' 'what about the black men?' 'hey, we do mean PEOPLE when we use that universal men comment right? The women are pissed now' and someone struggled to make it so. One rung up the latter to the heights at a time. And sometimes we fall hard.

 

 

All points well made, and many of them addressed right in the body of the article. What I'd like to ask you about is this... "And sometimes we fall hard."   Yes... true... but as white male (as I am) I have been much better off insulated from the damage of that fall, compared non-white males. That is the, in my own opinion, the biggest part of "white privilege." In that even when things get bad... they aren't nearly as bad for me. Trump is horrible, but I'm taking the smallest brunt of what he is doing compared to others. 

 

People like us have the privilege of being secure enough to look out over the decades, and see progress, and "tsk tsk, it isn't perfect, but we have to keep trying." But those people whose very survival is challenged every day?? If I was a black man, or basically anything other than a cis-gendered white male, I'd be ready to burn it ALL down because there is no slow and steady progress for me if I'm going to get gunned down, or imprisoned, or deported, or have my rights taken away TODAY!

 

And when someone uses the idea of privilege to make me feel like I have to shut up... well, at what point is freedom of speech dependent on some people shutting up and listening? The social contract isn't just everyone shouting at once... but everyone getting their turn to be EQUALLY HEARD! Sometimes I do have to shut up, so others can be heard.

And it isn't pleasant, is it? It hurts, and enrages, doesn't it?

 

Welcome to the rest of the world.

 

Now, I can decide to be petty and vicious in my hurt and run off to the white supremacists... and I can blame that on the SJWs or whatever... or I can accept that sometimes my role in society is to shut up and give other people a chance to speak, to allow them the power I've always had to be heard.

 

Most importantly, it is up to me to accept responsibility and not fall into the trap of blaming the oppressed for the violent petulance of the oppressor. 

 

"She didn't sleep with me, so I had to kill her and a bunch of other people."

 

"She shouldn't have worn skimpy shorts, or I wouldn't have raped her."

 

"They shouldn't have told me to shut up, so I had to go get my gun and burning crosses!"

 

 

How I react when challenged, when forced off my privileged pedestal, is actually the ultimate testament of character... and I'm certainly not going to tell people much worse off than I am that they are to blame for the surge in white supremacy.