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Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

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2 minutes ago, GM Joe said:

 

Good point; there are some journalists and editors doing good work out there!

 

And you're right, news reports fail to point out the subtleties of the D's position vis a vis walls.

 

That's why I end up being treated to rants from coworkers about how evil the D's are for shutting down the government instead of negotiating with Trump.

 

I wouldn't say it's both-sides-ism so much as Fox Newsitis.

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2 hours ago, Old Man said:

Ask your coworkers how they would negotiate with a man who changes his story more often than he changes his pants. 

 

I get that you're trying to break through the wall around their brain, but this is a 2d6 regular attack and their brains are tightly locked inside 20/20 hardened rDef to anything outside Fox et al.

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Ceding the point to the relatively new poster, challenging Trump supporters directly is never going to work.  There are a number of conservative parents in my kids' Scout troop, and it's a fine line between not rocking the boat and yet standing up for your values.  Fortunately I've already built up some rapport with these folks so it's easier to humanize issues ("The GOP shutdown in 2013 cost me my job") and ask thought provoking questions ("But why do same-sex couple bother you so much?")

 

It's easy to pick on these people for closemindedness, but anyone who gets pulled into the Fox/Facebook conservasphere is going to be hard to pull out.  It's not entirely their fault.

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15 hours ago, Old Man said:

It's easy to pick on these people for closemindedness, but anyone who gets pulled into the Fox/Facebook conservasphere is going to be hard to pull out.  It's not entirely their fault.

 

Yeah, it's pretty much a human thing, as recent studies have shown. We really, really don't like having our core beliefs challenged, and will pretty much do whatever it takes to keep them intact in most circumstances, including lying to ourselves about things we've seen right in front of us with our own eyes. It's pretty scary.

 

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It'll go on until the airports close.  The Occupant humiliated himself yesterday by feeding cold fast food to Clemson athletes because WH kitchen staff had been furloughed.  He made a big deal about paying for it out of his own pocket, although he owns a hotel and restaurant two blocks away.

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Various news reports (and an interview on All /things Considered) dealt with a recent study our of Princeton on who was most likely to pass along fake news during the 2016 campaign. Result: By age, people over 65 were most likely, with percentages declining with each age bracket down. And very conservative people were far more likely than the moderate, liberal or very liberal to pass along fake news.

 

Centers and Lefties should not feel too smug, though. In the interview, one of the researchers pointed out a confounding variable: So much more disinformation was put out to benefit Trump than to benefit Clinton. So people in other ideological brackets weren't given as much chance to fall for bushwah.

 

One might suspect that the Russians and other producers of misinformation and disinformation had an idea which cohort would be most susceptible, but that was beyond the scope of the study. And as mentioned above, we can all fall prey to confirmation bias. So, the old adage about splinters and logs in the eye. And another that anyone who wants to change other people's behavior should show the possibility by changing their own. I am not sure I would succeed at that challenge.

 

Dean Shomshak

 

Dean Shomshak

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I am conflicted.

 

The wall is stupid

 

But the economic impact of not building it will soon equal and exceed the cost asked for building it.

 

But it is a government project, and a Trump government project at that. The wall will cost much more than 5 billion, and if Congress refuses to pay, we'll be right back here.

 

Conflicted.

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Honestly , at this point I think the Dems should go for something big and progressive and say "Here, you want five billion for the wall? You got it, IF you get twice as much to starting universal health care. We'll start with free health care for kids 12 and under. And build up from there."

 

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4 minutes ago, Hermit said:

Honestly , at this point I think the Dems should go for something big and progressive and say "Here, you want five billion for the wall? You got it, IF you get twice as much to starting universal health care. We'll start with free health care for kids 12 and under. And build up from there."

 

 

That's pretty much what I've been thinking. Trump gets his stupid wall, but we get Universal Healthcare, Tuition Free Public Colleges, and 70% tax on income in excess of $10,000,000.00 per year (from all sources including capital gains and money in offshore accounts).

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4 hours ago, Old Man said:

It'll go on until the airports close.  The Occupant humiliated himself yesterday by feeding cold fast food to Clemson athletes because WH kitchen staff had been furloughed.  He made a big deal about paying for it out of his own pocket, although he owns a hotel and restaurant two blocks away.

 

I hadn't even considered that aspect of the shutdown.

 

Now I'm even more frustrated by the whole thing.

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What makes you guys think Trump and McConnell will suddenly start negotiating in good faith?  The current spending bill that's been approved by the House is the same bill that was unanimously approved by the Senate weeks ago, now McConnell won't even bring it to the floor.  Trump is on tape telling Pelosi and Schumer that he'd proudly own any shutdown; now he's blaming Pelosi and Schumer.  And people blame the Dems for not caving?

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Oh if I were the dems I wouldn't give them any wiggle room to weasel it. Make the offer. Make the offer public. Let people find out that the Dems tried to negotiate to help the health care of kids and that got nixed along with the wall.

 

Trump's loyalists won't change their minds

but even more folks on the fence would probably realize that at least the Dems are trying to negotiate 

 

Least that's my hope

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The wall won't work. The government shutdown hurts innocent people. IMO all federal political players are to blame for years of shortsightedness bringing the United States to the point where such a scenario can even exist.

 

But now that the country is here, I believe that the Democrats cannot concede to President Trump's demands without at least major concessions in return. Trump is willing to use the well-being of his own citizenry as leverage to get his way. It would set a dangerous precedent for any head of state to be rewarded for such behavior.

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But we've known that deal would fail for a while now.  It's not surprising.  Logically the EU can't provide a better deal lest it encourage other members to defect.  The only real solution is to not-Brexit, and I don't understand why that's even an issue given all the evidence that the Russians tampered with the referendum.

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