Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[Starlord]

[Old Man]

So there is documentation showing that Trump ordered Cohen to lie to Congress.  This is a crime called subornation of perjury, and also qualifies as obstruction of justice. 

 

However, the GOP may choose to be complicit in this crime along with all the others.

 

We now return you to our regular sanity-preserving political funny pictures.

[Starlord]

Mueller disputes Buzzfeed report

[Iuz the Evil]

So the big offer today was temporary protected status for DACA?

 

[Old Man]

Which the tea partiers immediately decried as "amnesty".  This shutdown's going to take a while.

[Sociotard]

That's the real problem. The shutdown is what the "core constituencies" want. Oh, they say they just want the government reopened, but each side sees any concession as too much. Our politicians are doing exactly what they are theoretically supposed to.

[csyphrett]

2 hours ago, Sociotard said:

That's the real problem. The shutdown is what the "core constituencies" want. Oh, they say they just want the government reopened, but each side sees any concession as too much. Our politicians are doing exactly what they are theoretically supposed to.

Actually the house already sent three reopen the government bills to the Senate. Mitch McConnel has refused to bring them to the floor to be voted on. That's why some of the democrats in the senate have started #Where'sMitch on Twitter

CES 

[Sociotard]

As I understand it, none of those addressed anything about the wall, or border security otherwise.  Unless the compromise addresses those, the government will stay closed. I don't like it, but that is the way it is.

 

As such, the Democrats are not working towards a workable compromise.

[Iuz the Evil]

11 minutes ago, Sociotard said:

As I understand it, none of those addressed anything about the wall, or border security otherwise.  Unless the compromise addresses those, the government will stay closed. I don't like it, but that is the way it is.

 

As such, the Democrats are not working towards a workable compromise.

So if the demo stake out a position that is anathema to the GOP (something akin to the Wall, say Universal Health Care). Any bill that doesn't address that isn't moving toward workable compromise?

 

I don't see the Democrats moving on the wall. This could last a while. It's a non starter for their base.

 

Border security is a maybe, depending on what's offered up. A wall? Nope. The constituency will lose their mind. Be like the tea party agreeing to modest tax increases. Impossible.

 

And frankly, they didn't own this. The face of the GOP did. So make a meaningful concession or we keep going along as a nation with shut down government, that's how it works. And the public opinion appears to preliminarily support the strategy.

[Sociotard]

I don't think you can compare a 5 billion dollar wall with a 7,300 billion dollar universal health care program. Even at a more likely sum of 70 billion for the wall, the two are not well matched.

 

And of course the Democrat's base doesn't want the wall. The trick is to find something they want as much as they hate the wall. If they offered a path to citizenship for DACA people instead of just deferred action . . . I'd be interested.

[Iuz the Evil]

2 hours ago, Sociotard said:

I don't think you can compare a 5 billion dollar wall with a 7,300 billion dollar universal health care program. Even at a more likely sum of 70 billion for the wall, the two are not well matched.

 

And of course the Democrat's base doesn't want the wall. The trick is to find something they want as much as they hate the wall. If they offered a path to citizenship for DACA people instead of just deferred action . . . I'd be interested.

If they offered a citizenship for current DACA registrants, they might have a starting point for discussion. By itself, that's almost certainly not enough. The wall has become a symbolic issue for both parties, it will take major concessions before they move on that issue.

 

And so far, there's nothing on the table at all. A temporary, administrative 3 year stay of deportation. Maybe. That's not even worth considering.

[Sociotard]

Oh, I agree, the Trump "compromise" was wholly inadequate. I'm just saying that the Democrats have not offered a better compromise.

[Iuz the Evil]

9 minutes ago, Sociotard said:

Oh, I agree, the Trump "compromise" was wholly inadequate. I'm just saying that the Democrats have not offered a better compromise.

I don't really think it's their job to do so at this point. The position they've taken is we will pass a budget but won't fund your wall. If the other party wants to add something to the budget, they need to offer something to get them to the table.

[mojo_bones]

Just to be clear, the bill DID have funding for border security. As have previous bills agreed to by both parties. The sticking point is NOT border security but is said to be the wall. I suspect that isn't it either. I think Trump and the senate Republicans know an open government speeds up and puts the focus back on his campaign's dealings with Russia and Trump's financial issues. Anything to delay and obstruct that area of questioning is where we stand now. Again, Trump and the Republicans had 2 years to bring this up and didn't. It is not about the wall.

[Old Man]

2 hours ago, Iuz the Evil said:

I don't really think it's their job to do so at this point. The position they've taken is we will pass a budget but won't fund your wall. If the other party wants to add something to the budget, they need to offer something to get them to the table.

 

Not only is it not their job, it'd be incredibly irresponsible of them to do so.  Any concessions would merely empower the GOP to take the government hostage over and over and over again.  On top of that, Trump is impossible to negotiate with because he's unable to negotiate in good faith.  He changes positions more often than he changes his underwear.  Just look at the negotiations leading up to this shutdown, where he proudly proclaimed he'd take ownership of it and then turned around and blamed the Democrats for it a couple of days later.  I can't think of a more clear cut situation where negotiations should not even be attempted.

[csyphrett]

21 hours ago, Sociotard said:

As I understand it, none of those addressed anything about the wall, or border security otherwise.  Unless the compromise addresses those, the government will stay closed. I don't like it, but that is the way it is.

 

As such, the Democrats are not working towards a workable compromise.

Border security was offered. Trump said no. If Trump and McConnell were gone, the government would reopen as soon as the the new senate majority leader  passed the vote, and the new president signed the paperwork. One of the CRs sent back was held by the GOP before Congress was seated.

 

Basically the Democratic Congress voted on a bill that the GOP came up with and McConnell is like I am going to let this expire so Trump won't veto it.

 

You can't get a better compromise than that.

CES   

[DShomshak]

On 1/21/2019 at 12:01 AM, Old Man said:

 

Not only is it not their job, it'd be incredibly irresponsible of them to do so.  Any concessions would merely empower the GOP to take the government hostage over and over and over again.  On top of that, Trump is impossible to negotiate with because he's unable to negotiate in good faith.  He changes positions more often than he changes his underwear.  Just look at the negotiations leading up to this shutdown, where he proudly proclaimed he'd take ownership of it and then turned around and blamed the Democrats for it a couple of days later.  I can't think of a more clear cut situation where negotiations should not even be attempted.

 

Interestingly (to me at least), this seemed to be about the position of a German minister who explained on the BBC why the EU wasn't going to make any offers to the UK regarding Brxit. If I understood him correctly, he said that you couldn't negotiate with someone who couldn't settle on what they actually wanted. Until the UK government could settle on a position, the EU had nothing to work with. And it isn't their job to keep making offers until the UK finds something it likes.

 

Dean Shomshak

[csyphrett]

Wilbur Ross said the 800k people affected by the shutdown really isn't that much and they should just get loans until they can go back to work

 

CES 

[Hermit]

Just now, csyphrett said:

Wilbur Ross said the 800k people affected by the shutdown really isn't that much and they should just get loans until they can go back to work

 

CES 

 

And suddenly the Mafia gets a resurgence 

 

 

[csyphrett]

1 minute ago, Hermit said:

 

And suddenly the Mafia gets a resurgence 

 

 

In my opinion, it's not just the 800k of Federal Employees hurt. There's a lot of knock on effects that affect the rest of the country. Take me for example. I deliver pizzas. Some of the pizzas I deliver go to people with snap, or federal employees, or other affected individuals in various ways. If you are not getting paid, how are you going to buy a twenty dollar pizza for your family? And we have been so slow in my delivery area this last week as the shutdown stretches out. I had 7 runs on Monday, (Monday was a holiday so maybe all the business was in the daytime), 12 on Tuesday, 7 last night. That's incredibly slow for a closing driver. 

CES 

[Hermit]

Just now, csyphrett said:

In my opinion, it's not just the 800k of Federal Employees hurt. There's a lot of knock on effects that affect the rest of the country. Take me for example. I deliver pizzas. Some of the pizzas I deliver go to people with snap, or federal employees, or other affected individuals in various ways. If you are not getting paid, how are you going to buy a twenty dollar pizza for your family? And we have been so slow in my delivery area this last week as the shutdown stretches out. I had 7 runs on Monday, (Monday was a holiday so maybe all the business was in the daytime), 12 on Tuesday, 7 last night. That's incredibly slow for a closing driver. 

CES 

I would say your opinion is dead on right. The fall out is spreading. You hear a lot of stories about cafes in DC that used to have a lot of workers eat there losing customers as they have to cut cost so similar to your pizza delivery. 

[Cygnia]

I have a friend down in FL who can't access her medical disability payments due to the shutdown.

[csyphrett]

21 minutes ago, Cygnia said:

I have a friend down in FL who can't access her medical disability payments due to the shutdown.

Exactly. How long before SSA gives out? I have a lot of old people here in my delivery area. When do we start losing business because their checks haven't arrived yet?

CES 

[BoloOfEarth]

9 minutes ago, csyphrett said:

Exactly. How long before SSA gives out? I have a lot of old people here in my delivery area. When do we start losing business because their checks haven't arrived yet?

CES 

 

If SSA stopped going out, I'd think we'd have a little bit bigger problem than the effect on businesses.

[Hermit]

If the SSA  stopped going out....

the Revolution will be televised after all because the older generation doesn't understand streaming?