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5 hours ago, mojo_bones said:

But it seems they never held Trump accountable. He has told these stories often and it was never made into media outrage story.  So again why is it that Warren is held to anincredibly high standard on this?

 

Not lying about your ethnic heritage on a job resume is a pretty damn low standard.   Unless your argument is Trump made her do it, this is pointless.     

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1 minute ago, Badger said:

 

Not lying about your ethnic heritage on a job resume is a pretty damn low standard.   Unless your argument is Trump made her do it, this is pointless.     

Again until I was in my late 20s I believed I was 1/4 German. My entire family believed we were 1/4 German. If you had asked me in a job interview I would have said I was part German. Is that a lie? This is EXACTLY what happened with Senator Warren. Her family members have said that was the same story they were all told as well. So she believed she was part native American when she listed it as such. From all evidence this was what she believed at the time and was not an intentional lie. Contrast this with Trump claiming his dad gave him a small loan to get started and nothing more. This is an intentional lie used to hide his true family history. How on earth can you say Warren's situation is more damaging to her credibility that Trump's? That is the point.

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5 hours ago, mojo_bones said:

That's a mighty high standard that I think most people would not live up to. Again I told people all the time that I was 1/4 German. Turns out my mother and grandmother were wrong. But, why would I have doubted them? What reason did I have to think it wasn't true? Until quite recently most people had no easy way of verifying these stories IF (big if) they had some reason to doubt what they had been told by their elders since a very early age.  And all of the still misses the point. Trump's story was verifiable and clearly a lie. A lie that he KNEW was a lie. It's not like his dad told him the money fairy gave him millions of dollars throughout his life. He used that story throughout his life and into his political career to gain advantages. He told that story again and again not only after he knew it was false (because he always knew) but after the proof was in the public. And yet...barely a grumble. When he started running for president telling this story no one batted an eyelash. It was not something people thought of as proof he couldn't be President.  When Trump calls Senator Warren Pocahontas people laugh or say it's racist. I NEVER hear anyone say how can a man who has lied about his family story try to chastise someone else for simply not knowing theirs.  Again the "left leaning media" does not do that. Nor do I ever see it posted anywhere. The double standard on this is staggering.

 

The left calls people who wear the wrong hat racist without knowing anything else about them.  But, since you love making this comparison:  What would happen to a conservative who claimed Native American heritage remarking on the family's "high cheekbones", to only find out they had little to no said heritage.  If you don't think they would be called racist, by every liberal in the news circuit, then fooling yourself is one's choice I suppose.  I've seen conservatives called racist over the last decade for much much less.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, mojo_bones said:

Again until I was in my late 20s I believed I was 1/4 German. My entire family believed we were 1/4 German. If you had asked me in a job interview I would have said I was part German. Is that a lie? This is EXACTLY what happened with Senator Warren. Her family members have said that was the same story they were all told as well. So she believed she was part native American when she listed it as such. From all evidence this was what she believed at the time and was not an intentional lie. Contrast this with Trump claiming his dad gave him a small loan to get started and nothing more. This is an intentional lie used to hide his true family history. How on earth can you say Warren's situation is more damaging to her credibility that Trump's? That is the point.

 

If I ever rob the local gas station, I'll use the "other people got away with it" excuse and see how it works.

 

But, yeah, sure, Trump should be called on it.  On the other hand, the media was too busy calling him out on everything else, and ran out of time.  I mean people are literally blaming him for Smollett's scam.  As much as I hate Trump, myself.  I literally don't know where to go with this some of this bull. 

 

In any case, I've been called on conservative/liberal politican comparison here similar to this, several times in the past by other posters.

 

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3 minutes ago, Badger said:

 

The left calls people who wear the wrong hat racist without knowing anything else about them.  But, since you love making this comparison:  What would happen to a conservative who claimed Native American heritage remarking on the family's "high cheekbones", to only find out they had little to no said heritage.  If you don't think they would be called racist, by every liberal in the news circuit, then fooling yourself is one's choice I suppose.  I've seen conservatives called racist over the last decade for much much less.

 

 

Saying that "the liberals in the news would do it" or "the left does it" is not a very good defense. Two wrongs and all that. We are a country of mutts. We are a country that has romanticized different backgrounds at different times and in different regions resulting in family histories claiming those backgrounds. Those myths are passed down from generation to generation and taken as fact. There is a significant populace in this country who believe they are something they are not. The idea that not knowing your history or being misled about your history is worse than purposely making up your history is what I am talking about. Nothing more, nothing less.

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1 hour ago, Ranxerox said:

Yet 

for some reason, we seem unwilling to allow female candidates the same human moral frailty.  

 

Who's "we"? Americans have criticized all of the above male politicians. The right to speak out against our leaders is fairly well ingrained. Nobody's being unfair to Warren because she's a woman. She's catching flak because of her own actions and because of her seriously flawed and insincere attempts at damage control.

 

As far as I'm personally concerned, I think she needs to make amends for her actions, but if she gets her party's nomination, I'll still vote for her. In fact, she's fairly high up on my list of preferred candidates for the Democrats.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Badger said:

 

If I ever rob the local gas station, I'll use the "other people got away with it" excuse and see how it works.

 

I really don't get your point here. It is not illegal to believe a story.  I was not trying to commit a crime by believing I was 1/4 German. My mother was not trying to commit a crime when she told me I was 1/4 German. It is what she was told so it is what she told her kids. To compare this to a crime seems a bit excessive.

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8 minutes ago, mojo_bones said:

The idea that not knowing your history or being misled about your history is worse than purposely making up your history is what I am talking about.

 

One thing to consider in this: Even if she believed she was part Native American sincerely, as a law professor she should have damned well been aware that checking off her race on a government form is attesting that one is a member of a tribe. Harvard Law represented her in its reports to the government as a Native American for six years running. She claims that she didn't know about this, but when she checked the box to apply as a law professor (not a student entering college, but as someone already versed in the law), she should have known. The only explanations for this are that she was acting in ignorance (unlikely, she seems to be highly capable), or to take advantage of her heritage without meeting the legal requirements.

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2 minutes ago, Pattern Ghost said:

 

One thing to consider in this: Even if she believed she was part Native American sincerely, as a law professor she should have damned well been aware that checking off her race on a government form is attesting that one is a member of a tribe. Harvard Law represented her in its reports to the government as a Native American for six years running. She claims that she didn't know about this, but when she checked the box to apply as a law professor (not a student entering college, but as someone already versed in the law), she should have known. The only explanations for this is that she was acting in ignorance (unlikely, she seems to be highly capable), or to take advantage of her heritage without meeting the legal requirements.

Again, there is absolutely no way Trump didn't make up his family history intentionally. So even if Warren flat out lied about this*  why is it that only Warren's "lie" on this subject is ever talked about anywhere?  If it is not a double standard, than what is it?  It is almost impossible to find a recent article about Senator Warren that does not mention this subject. Only one newspaper did a full article on Trump's story about a small loan from his father. It was discussed for maybe a week and it was never a subject anyone raised with Trump directly. If it is a big deal for one why not for the other? If is something that needs to be scrutinized to see if she is "fit for the office" how is it that it was never an important matter for Trump for the exact same office?  To put it simply- even if she lied why is now a bigger deal then it was just a few years ago?  Why would this one lie be a deal breaker when compared to the other politicians?

 

 

* There are plausible explanations for her actions.Many do not like them but they are there. Her story is not uncommon in America.

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6 hours ago, mojo_bones said:

But it seems they never held Trump accountable. He has told these stories often and it was never made into media outrage story.

 

It was made into media outrage story, by the media who chose to cover it. The people who support Trump don't believe it or don't care. The people who would have been outraged have been bombarded by so much outrageousness from the man, either that one thing gets lost in the avalanche, or they've just become numb to outrage in relation to his antics.

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20 minutes ago, mojo_bones said:

Again, there is absolutely no way Trump didn't make up his family history intentionally.

 

Again, this isn't about Trump. That's a facetious argument. It's whataboutism.

 

Go back and read my posts without reading into them as if I'm the media or representing the media. There is NOTHING that makes Warren in the right in this. And what she has done is far from harmless. The tribes have a very legitimate beef with her, as pointed out in an earlier article which you apparently either didn't read or disregarded.

 

You need to quit beating the "Trump is worse" drum in defense of Warren. Nobody's picking on Warren. She put herself into this situation.

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24 minutes ago, mojo_bones said:

* There are plausible explanations for her actions.Many do not like them but they are there. Her story is not uncommon in America.

 

AGAIN: If you check a box that says "Native American" on a form for an employer, it's for the employer to report equal opportunity stats to the government, and THERE IS A LEGAL REQUIREMENT OF TRIBAL MEMBERSHIP. She was a law professor, she should have known this. So your defense of her is basically that she's an incompetent lawyer? How is it that an educated lawyer who had a "meteoric" rise in her career according to some, didn't know that, when I've known it since I was a child?

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13 minutes ago, Pattern Ghost said:

 

AGAIN: If you check a box that says "Native American" on a form for an employer, it's for the employer to report equal opportunity stats to the government, and THERE IS A LEGAL REQUIREMENT OF TRIBAL MEMBERSHIP.

 

I'm going to have to ask for a cite on this.  It's a purely voluntary checkbox on a form with no enforcement ramifications of which I am aware.  Especially since there is a substantial percentage of the citizenry that couldn't possibly have known with any certainty what their genetic background is.  People whose families fed them misinformation.  People who were adopted.  People whose parents immigrated from foreign countries, or were forcibly immigrated from foreign countries.  People whose records were lost.  I'm sure there's more I haven't thought of.

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19 minutes ago, Old Man said:

 

I'm going to have to ask for a cite on this.  It's a purely voluntary checkbox on a form with no enforcement ramifications of which I am aware.  Especially since there is a substantial percentage of the citizenry that couldn't possibly have known with any certainty what their genetic background is.  People whose families fed them misinformation.  People who were adopted.  People whose parents immigrated from foreign countries, or were forcibly immigrated from foreign countries.  People whose records were lost.  I'm sure there's more I haven't thought of. 

 

The information is collected for the EEO-1 report. Here's the EEO-1 instruction booklet. Here's the quote regarding tribal affiliation being required for claiming Native American status for reporting purposes:

 



Native American or Alaska Native (Not Hispanic or Latino) - A person having origins in any of the original peoples of North and South America (including Central America), and who maintain tribal affiliation or community attachment.

 

I'm not digging up any actual law saying someone has to follow the instructions for reporting. It may even be more regulatory. But in any other things requiring minority status, like minority business owner status for government programs, etc., anyone claiming Native American status is required to have a tribal affiliation. It is not the same as claiming race. See the USA Today article I linked above for an explanation of why a quantum of blood definition of Native American as a race is politically bad for the tribal nations.

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How long ago is six generations?

 

First, the Cherokee Nation revealed that Warren had contacted tribal leaders and apologized for touting the results of her DNA test as evidence of her Native American ancestry. Then on 5 February, the Washington Postreported that Warren had issued a significantly expanded statement, apologizing for describing herself as Native American for many years:

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9 hours ago, Pattern Ghost said:

 

Again, this isn't about Trump. That's a facetious argument. It's whataboutism.

 

Go back and read my posts without reading into them as if I'm the media or representing the media. There is NOTHING that makes Warren in the right in this. And what she has done is far from harmless. The tribes have a very legitimate beef with her, as pointed out in an earlier article which you apparently either didn't read or disregarded.

 

You need to quit beating the "Trump is worse" drum in defense of Warren. Nobody's picking on Warren. She put herself into this situation.

I apologize if you are reading my posts as saying you personally are part of the media or somehow representing them. The point remains. This was a complete non issue for previous candidates. What you see as "whataboutism" I see as a reasonable question.  From the perspective of a presidential nomination, Warren's "lie" is pointed to as why she could never win a general election against Trump. So it is perfectly reasonable to make a comparison between the two potential candidates (Trump v Warren). And when comparing the two handling their own personal stories how do they compare?  One candidate who has again apologized and has a plausible reason or why it happened and the other who has not apologized, continued to tell the same story well after even the public knew it was false and has no possible explanation for the lies. If I were to talk about Bush or Romney or Clinton in caparison to Warren then the argument for whataboutism would be applicable. But here it is literally the comparison we will possibly be asked to make in the near future.

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11 hours ago, mojo_bones said:

I really don't get your point here. It is not illegal to believe a story.  I was not trying to commit a crime by believing I was 1/4 German. My mother was not trying to commit a crime when she told me I was 1/4 German. It is what she was told so it is what she told her kids. To compare this to a crime seems a bit excessive.

 

Ok, telling your friends you were German=saying you're Native American on your resume.  

 

first off, generally in our country's social climate. we don't differenatiate all that often between German white and Irish white and Scottish white, etc.  It simply doesn't have the same connotations.  But, regardless this is arguably the minor point in this conversation.

 

 

Their is something very different between telling your friends about your rumored heritage, and telling a potential boss about your rumored heritage.  

 

And yes, I did mention the high cheekbone comment (and Pow-Wow Chow should also be mentioned).  because anybody with a combination of even mild racial sensitivity towards stereotypes and are not completely blind by political bias should at least friggin cringe a little over.   

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11 hours ago, mojo_bones said:

Again, there is absolutely no way Trump didn't make up his family history intentionally. So even if Warren flat out lied about this*  why is it that only Warren's "lie" on this subject is ever talked about anywhere?  If it is not a double standard, than what is it?  It is almost impossible to find a recent article about Senator Warren that does not mention this subject. Only one newspaper did a full article on Trump's story about a small loan from his father. It was discussed for maybe a week and it was never a subject anyone raised with Trump directly. If it is a big deal for one why not for the other? If is something that needs to be scrutinized to see if she is "fit for the office" how is it that it was never an important matter for Trump for the exact same office?  To put it simply- even if she lied why is now a bigger deal then it was just a few years ago?  Why would this one lie be a deal breaker when compared to the other politicians?

 

 

* There are plausible explanations for her actions.Many do not like them but they are there. Her story is not uncommon in America.

 

Her story is not uncommon, yes.

 

Using it on resume however is.

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11 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

It was made into media outrage story, by the media who chose to cover it. The people who support Trump don't believe it or don't care. The people who would have been outraged have been bombarded by so much outrageousness from the man, either that one thing gets lost in the avalanche, or they've just become numb to outrage in relation to his antics.

 

Thank you, that was what I was trying to point out, last night.  We have had an absolute flood of stuff,  whether it be real or imagined*, that has been covered over Trump's atrocities.  That there might not have simply been time to cover, before the next explosion.

 

*actually not trying to say one way or another, I do feel the media gets a little overzealous in the Trump blame game at times, but that still doesn't give cover for him from my judgement.

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9 hours ago, csyphrett said:

How long ago is six generations?

 

First, the Cherokee Nation revealed that Warren had contacted tribal leaders and apologized for touting the results of her DNA test as evidence of her Native American ancestry. Then on 5 February, the Washington Postreported that Warren had issued a significantly expanded statement, apologizing for describing herself as Native American for many years:

 

Simply depends on when the kids are born.  Going back a mere 4 generations for me, and I find a great-great grandfather who died in the Civil War.  Because my mother was 35 (well 34 and 10 months), when I was born, and her father was 48 when she was.  The gap is probably larger than most.

 

The concrete part is that 6 generations ago, you would have been given 64 different DNA contributions.  This would be below 2%.  And keep in mind they said 6-10 generations.  So, 6 is the absolutely most positive possibility.   As far a 10 generations, considering her year of birth, and we assume an average of 30 years per generation, we would have about 1-2 generations after the Mayflower.  Even an average of 25, would get her around 1700.  

 

 

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2 hours ago, mojo_bones said:

The point remains.

 

I think we're at an impasse. You seem to be willing to excuse what Warren did as a little white lie, while I see it as having farther reaching consequences. You seem to think that it's important to compare what Warren did to what Trump did, as if it's necessary to point out that she's the (far) lesser of two evils, while I think we already all know that, and I've already stated my position on it.

 

But if you want to do a comparison: Which family story hurt more people, Warren's or Trump's?

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