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Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)


Simon

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2 minutes ago, Toxxus said:

1-  I have a hard time believing you have actual concentration camps that escaped media attention.

2-  There wasn't remotely enough evidence to convict anyone with what was brought forth.  Claiming that he's factually a serial sexual abuser is pretty extreme.

3-  I actually agree with you partially on this front.  However, congress sets the spending bills and the tax bills and with a brief exception for Bill Clinton we've run a massive deficit each year for decades because our government spends far more than it takes in and obliges itself to future debts to the tune of 100+ trillion dollars - already.

4-  No idea what you even mean here.  They're not trying to make anyone not exist.

5-  I don't believe this is happening at all.  In fact we've had some countries recently applaud the fact we're no longer ashamed to be Americans.

6-  I won't argue that his ego is a titanic monstrosity.  It is, but some of these trade deals are garbage and hurt us.  Pushing back to get fair deals is not a sign of evil.  We got a new deal with Mexico recently.

7-  Both parties do this and it's garbage.  Doesn't seem like rational discussions on issues and, gods forbid, some compromise are in fashion any more.

8-  Calling the administration Nazi's is way over the line.  Also, probably inaccurate as it stands for National Socialist and Trump has been pretty outspoken against socialism.

 

 

1. Well, we're keeping kids in cages. Putting people who cam here seeking amnesty (which is completely legal, by the way) in tent cities in inhumane conditions. We aren't gassing them yet, but people are dying, including children.

2. It wasn't a criminal trial. Innocent until proven guilty is irrelevant. And the admin and the republicans on the committee did everything in there power to make sure that any evidence didn't come out.

3. Well, a little agreement is something, I guess.

4. I'm a trans woman. They want doctor's to be able to refuse to treat me, even in an ER. Even if my life is in danger. They want me to have to use the men's bathroom in public, which would clearly out me as such, which would endanger my life in may places. So my only choice, if they get there way, would be to strictly limit my time in public, or break the law and use the correct bathroom, for which I would be arrested if caught, and then put in jail with men. They don't want me to exist.

5. Which countries would those be? Saudi Arabia? Brazil (with it's newly elected fascist leader)? North Korea? I was never ashamed to be an American, and few Democrats were. I'm leaning that direction now, though.

6. Which deals were hurt us more than the ridiculous tariffs he's imposing?

7. The democratic party is not in the habit of ginning up fear of other. They get hyperbolic about some things, but they aren't demonizing whole races of people.

8. I didn't call the whole admin Nazi's. I said there are Nazis in the administration. Stephen Miller is a genuine Nazi in all but name. He associates with actual Nazis. He espouses Nazi ideals. He is high up in the admin and has the ear of the president. And Simon's post about the origin of the name Nazi is a good point.

 

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46 minutes ago, Dr.Device said:

They want doctor's to be able to refuse to treat me, even in an ER.

 

I hadn't heard that one yet.

 

Here's what I found, for others who may not have heard it. From Snopes:

 

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hhs-allow-doctors-to-refuse-lgbtq/

 

Pretty messed up. If you have religious objections to providing medical service to anyone, then you need to find a new line of work.

 

And Severino seems to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the issue of gender confirmation surgery (hopefully I used the current terminology this time). There are very well-established protocols leading up to GRS to ensure that it's being used on the right patients* and as far as I know there are less issues with the process than in the past. EDIT: The footnote got sucked into the quote block for some reason, but the part after the * below is not part of the quote, it's my footnote on care standards. I can't edit the quote sections of the new board as the code doesn't show.

 

Quote

 


Severino had objected to the idea of gender identity applying to patient protections before taking his position at HHS, and in January 2016 he co-authored a report for the conservative group the Heritage Foundation stating that such regulations would “lead to unreasonable and costly litigation” for health care providers and insurers, among others:

 

They effectively require controversial procedures, such as “sex-reassignment” surgery, that respected medical professionals argue have not been proven to be effective in treating serious mental health conditions. Rather than respect the diversity of opinions on sensitive and controversial health care issues, the proposed regulations endorse and enforce one side of the debate and trample on the freedom of conscience of many in the medical community.

 

*There were some news stories of people who had become deeply depressed or suicidal after undergoing SRS  (old term), many years ago, but there have been strict care standards in place for decades to help prevent patients who shouldn't undergo irreversible surgery from doing so.

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On 4/15/2019 at 4:47 PM, wcw43921 said:

 

I could be persuaded pretty easily to change my party affiliation back to Republican to vote for Bill Weld in a primary against Donald Trump.

 

(In my state, arguably the reddest of the Red states, the Republican primaries are closed. Democratic primary elections are open to all who want to participate.)

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39 minutes ago, Pattern Ghost said:

 

I hadn't heard that one yet.

 

Here's what I found, for others who may not have heard it. From Snopes:

 

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hhs-allow-doctors-to-refuse-lgbtq/

 

Pretty messed up. If you have religious objections to providing medical service to anyone, then you need to find a new line of work.

 

And Severino seems to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the issue of gender confirmation surgery (hopefully I used the current terminology this time). There are very well-established protocols leading up to GRS to ensure that it's being used on the right patients* and as far as I know there are less issues with the process than in the past. EDIT: The footnote got sucked into the quote block for some reason, but the part after the * below is not part of the quote, it's my footnote on care standards. I can't edit the quote sections of the new board as the code doesn't show.

 

 

GCS is my preferred terminology. Other trans folk prefer others. As long as you don't call it sex change surgery, you're probably fine.

 

As far as the fear of doctors being forced to perform GCS, yeah, right. It's a highly specialized surgery that requires very specific training. No trans person is going to want someone who is anything less than skilled and enthusiastic performing it.  Using that fear as an excuse to allow doctors not to treat us at all is just an excuse for transphobia and general bigotry. 

 

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1 hour ago, Dr.Device said:

It's a highly specialized surgery that requires very specific training.

 

Yeah, I'm not sure how this even came into that discussion. AFAIK, everyone from the doctor on down in the clinic is specially trained and these are private practices anyway. So, it's not like anyone's being forced to participate in the GCS process. Which only leaves people not wanting to provide routine or emergency care that's not related to the process.

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After the righteous indignation, we heard from Democrats about Obama being called a Nazi, and how it was so awful to compare anyone to Nazis (and they had a point back then).  I don't want to hear a damn peep of Nazism cries from them now.  

 

If I was a more vindictive person, I would recommend shamelessly calling the next Dem President Nazi at every turn for his tenure.  The Dems have no right to complain.

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Badger said:

After the righteous indignation, we heard from Democrats about Obama being called a Nazi, and how it was so awful to compare anyone to Nazis (and they had a point back then).  I don't want to hear a damn peep of Nazism cries from them now.  

 

If I was a more vindictive person, I would recommend shamelessly calling the next Dem President Nazi at every turn for his tenure.  The Dems have no right to complain.

 

 

 

Seriously? Steve Miller had the head of DHS fired/asked to resign because she wasn't nazi enough. 

CES 

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8 minutes ago, Badger said:

After the righteous indignation, we heard from Democrats about Obama being called a Nazi, and how it was so awful to compare anyone to Nazis (and they had a point back then).  I don't want to hear a damn peep of Nazism cries from them now.  

 

If I was a more vindictive person, I would recommend shamelessly calling the next Dem President Nazi at every turn for his tenure.  The Dems have no right to complain.

 

 

 

 

 

The "Obama is a Nazi" thing came about because the Democrats had tried to make a meme out of "BUSHITLER" at rallies and protests over the previous 8 years.

 

 

I think there's a lot of Democrat activists who wish they'd saved the "he's Hitler" charge for the current president so that the charge wouldn't be dismissed as "oh, they say that about every Republican president".

 

BUSHITLER.jpg

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The difference, of course, is that Trump is openly a white supremacist based on his words and policies, whereas calling Obama a Nazi is obviously ridiculous.

 

People on the left aren't labeling white supremacists as Nazis.  White supremacists are proudly labeling themselves Nazis.  Wearing Nazi uniforms.  Flying Nazi flags.  Using Nazi symbols. Marching in public.  And Trump is proud to represent them, promote their views, and install them in his cabinet.

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6 minutes ago, Badger said:

After the righteous indignation, we heard from Democrats about Obama being called a Nazi, and how it was so awful to compare anyone to Nazis (and they had a point back then).  I don't want to hear a damn peep of Nazism cries from them now.  

 

If I was a more vindictive person, I would recommend shamelessly calling the next Dem President Nazi at every turn for his tenure.  The Dems have no right to complain.

 

 

 

Before you start/continue with the wide-scale labeling, you may want to look up the political ideology of the Nazis.  Specifically how they were and are identified as an extreme conservative/right-wing socio-political stance.

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8 minutes ago, csyphrett said:

Seriously? Steve Miller had the head of DHS fired/asked to resign because she wasn't nazi enough. 

CES 

 

Can I have a link to a news article from the mainstream media which says exactly what you just tried to pass off as being the truth?

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Ex-Obama campaign manager Jim Messina: Sanders can't beat Trump

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/439397-ex-obama-campaign-manager-sanders-cant-beat-trump

 

He says Sanders is well-positioned to win the Democrat primary but he can't make a valid economic argument against Trump with swing voters due to the good economy.

 

Don't know if I agree with Messina on that point....

 

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6 minutes ago, archer said:

 

Can I have a link to a news article from the mainstream media which says exactly what you just tried to pass off as being the truth?

 

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/04/kirstjen-nielsen-mexico-immigration-homeland-security.html

 

Quote

Policy matters, but people who enact it might matter even more. The nature of Nielsen’s resignation—she left after Trump’s immigration demands became increasingly outrageous and perhaps even illegal—should be read as a warning: Something much worse might soon emerge from Trump’s nativist coterie.

It appears unlikely Trump will settle on someone like McAleenan, despite the acting director’s willingness to enact the White House’s border clampdown. If even Nielsen proved to be too much of a moderate for Trump’s ruthless taste, the president will likely look at a rabid nativist ideologue to continue pursuing his anti-immigrant fantasies.

 

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7 minutes ago, Simon said:

Before you start/continue with the wide-scale labeling, you may want to look up the political ideology of the Nazis.  Specifically how they were and are identified as an extreme conservative/right-wing socio-political stance.

 

I know what a Nazi is.  I also find comparing what happened at actual concentration camps in Nazi controlled territory to Trump policy (which I agree is quite misguided in its own right) quite offensive.   I do apologize for my anger getting me and not just reporting instead.

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4 minutes ago, Badger said:

 

I know what a Nazi is.  I also find comparing what happened at actual concentration camps in Nazi controlled territory to Trump policy (which I agree is quite misguided in its own right) quite offensive.   I do apologize for my anger getting me and not just reporting instead.

Your report would have been ignored.  Your action instead of reporting resulted in the one warning you will receive on this - any further transgression will result in your being banned.

 

Comparing the political party of Democrats to Nazis is in violation of the rules of these forums and this thread in particular.  You're lucky to have received just a warning.

Comparing the extreme nationalist, right-wing policies of the Trump administration (especially in regards to immigrants) to Nazism is both politically apt and backed up by multiple sources of significantly more training, education, and understanding than the lot of us.

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Fair enough on your side cygnia.  But, before my anger got the better of me (and how I should have typed),  we are getting way too free with the word Nazi in general,  not everyone on the right is a Nazi.   When I hear Nazi and concentration camp, I think of millions of people being locked away to be starved to death, gassed, experimented on, we've all seen the WWII footage.  That is a very visceral image.  There is no place for it, to frivolously undermine political opponents.  Extremists is merely extremists.

 

Edit: Just saw Simon's last post, ok then, I will stay clear of this thread for good, then. to keep the peace

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Badger said:

Fair enough on your side cygnia.  But, before my anger got the better of me (and how I should have typed),  we are getting way too free with the word Nazi in general,  not everyone on the right is a Nazi.   When I hear Nazi and concentration camp, I think of millions of people being locked away to be starved to death, gassed, experimented on, we've all seen the WWII footage.  That is a very visceral image.  There is no place for it, to frivolously undermine political opponents.  Extremists is merely extremists.

 

 

Actual, declared Nazis would disagree with you. They support the Trump administration.  They are more active since he took office.  There has been a rise/spike in anti-semitism, white nationalism, and racism since Trump took office. Odd, don't you think?

 

You have folks on the Left decrying the administration's policies being white nationalist and in line with Nazi beliefs.


You have white nationalists and actual Nazis supporting the administration and being supported in turn -- as shown in their rather marked rise in activity and "boldness"

 

And then we have people saying "well, they're not actively gassing/starving/shooting people...so I find it offensive when you call them Nazis."

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It is somewhat understandable to immediately equate Nazis only with the atrocities that occurred from 1939-45, but that happened because they were allowed to get to that horrible endgame.  Not enough people spoke up in the 20s when they were formed, nor in the 30s when they came to power.  The Nazi party was probably dismissed as extremists.  They had a measure of popularity because of a strong economy, a narrative that sparked a beaten down populace with calls similar to 'Make Germany Great Again', and a leader that knew just what to say to the lowest common denominator. 

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1 hour ago, Cygnia said:

I wasn't the one who made that initial point.  But you asked for a MSM article and I gave one that confirms that Nielsen resigned because she wasn't extreme enough.

 

You characterized it as "because she wasn't nazi enough ".

 

There's an inherent difference between "wasn't extreme enough" and "wasn't nazi enough ".

 

The MSM article recognized there was a difference while you did not.

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