Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[csyphrett]

6 hours ago, archer said:

 

You characterized it as "because she wasn't nazi enough ".

 

There's an inherent difference between "wasn't extreme enough" and "wasn't nazi enough ".

 

The MSM article recognized there was a difference while you did not.

I said it. I don't see any reason to defend it since DHS had to admit that they lost the parents they separated the kids from and they don't know which kids go where. Steve Miller has a long history of racism and white nationalism. All reports indicate that he's driving the wall and anti immigration programs. And the word is he asked for her to be booted since he was asking for illegal crap to happen.  

 

If he wasn't there, we might not be having a conversation about whether or not someone was racist, or nazi, enough to do the job. 

https://www.google.com/search?q=steve+miller+racist&oq=steve+miller+racist&aqs=chrome..69i57.11039j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 

CES

 

 

[Toxxus]

15 hours ago, Starlord said:

It is somewhat understandable to immediately equate Nazis only with the atrocities that occurred from 1939-45, but that happened because they were allowed to get to that horrible endgame.  Not enough people spoke up in the 20s when they were formed, nor in the 30s when they came to power.  The Nazi party was probably dismissed as extremists.  They had a measure of popularity because of a strong economy, a narrative that sparked a beaten down populace with calls similar to 'Make Germany Great Again', and a leader that knew just what to say to the lowest common denominator. 

 

My understanding of history is that they pushed a very egalitarian socialist agenda until they had some real power and then swerved hard-right with the racist genocide hyper-nationalism stuff.

 

But while they were building power they offered a list of goodies to the working class to gather influence that reads like a Democratic party wish list.

 

1-  Nationalized education.

2-  Nationalized healthcare.

3-  Gun Control.

4- Old Age Insurance

5- Rent Supplements

6- Disability benefits

 

You can wikipedia this stuff pretty easily.

The Nazi social welfare provisions included old age insurance, rent supplements, unemployment and disability benefits, old-age homes and interest-free loans for married couples, along with healthcare insurance, which was not decreed mandatory until 1941.^[6] One of the NSV branches, the Office of Institutional and Special Welfare, was responsible "for travellers' aid at railway stations; relief for ex-convicts; 'support' for re-migrants from abroad; assistance for the physically disabled, hard-of-hearing, deaf, mute, and blind; relief for the elderly, homeless and alcoholics; and the fight against illicit drugs and epidemics".^[7] The Office of Youth Relief, which had 30,000 branch offices by 1941, took the job of supervising "social workers, corrective training, mediation assistance" and dealing with judicial authorities to prevent juvenile delinquency.

 

I'm no fan of Trump either, but comparing his policies and administration to those of actual Nazi's is pretty disgusting stuff. 

 

Those same detention centers (concentration camps?) on the border were in play during the Obama era and nobody said a thing.

 

There's plenty to dislike about Trump without resorting to the reductio ad hitlerum.

 

 

[csyphrett]

Obama didn't put the kids in cages and lose their identities. He just sent them home. As a matter of fact he sent them home without putting them in dog cages at all. he sent them home without splitting up the families when possible. He was the highest deporting president ever, because his guys said get on the bus and go back to Mexico after your court date. Here's a stuffed animal for your kid. Come back next year.

CES 

[Old Man]

It would be misleading to quote from the Wikipedia page on the NSV and assume that its policies represented those of the Nazi regime.  The page on the overall economy of Nazi Germany shows how the NSV went against core Nazi principles and was used as a vehicle for racial purification:

 

Quote

The Nazis were hostile to the idea of social welfare in principle, upholding instead the Social Darwinist concept that the weak and feeble should perish.^[70] They condemned the welfare system of the Weimar Republic as well as private charity, accusing them of supporting people regarded as racially inferior and weak, who should have been weeded out in the process of natural selection.^[71] Nevertheless, faced with the mass unemployment and poverty of the Great Depression, the Nazis found it necessary to set up charitable institutions to help racially-pure Germans in order to maintain popular support, while arguing that this represented "racial self-help" and not indiscriminate charity or universal social welfare.^[72] Thus, Nazi programs such as the Winter Relief of the German People and the broader National Socialist People's Welfare (NSV) were organized as quasi-private institutions, officially relying on private donations from Germans to help others of their race - although in practice those who refused to donate could face severe consequences.^[73] Unlike the social welfare institutions of the Weimar Republic and the Christian charities, the NSV distributed assistance on explicitly racial grounds. It provided support only to those who were "racially sound, capable of and willing to work, politically reliable, and willing and able to reproduce." Non-Aryans were excluded, as well as the "work-shy", "asocials" and the "hereditarily ill."^[74] Successful efforts were made to get middle-class women involved in social work assisting large families,^[75] and the Winter Relief campaigns acted as a ritual to generate public sympathy.^[76] Meanwhile, in addition to being excluded from receiving aid under these programs, the physically disabled and homeless were actively persecuted, being labeled “life unworthy of life” or “useless eaters.”^[77]

The Nazis banned all trade unions that existed before their rise to power, and replaced them with the German Labour Front (DAF), controlled by the Nazi Party.^[78] They also outlawed strikes and lockouts.^[79] The stated goal of the German Labour Front was not to protect workers, but to increase output, and it brought in employers as well as workers.^[80][80] Journalist and historian William L. Shirer wrote that it was "a vast propaganda organization...a gigantic fraud."^[80] Meanwhile, the Chamber of Economics (whose president was appointed by the Reich minister of economics) absorbed all existing chambers of commerce. By 1934 these two groups merged somewhat when the Chamber of Economics also became the economics department of the DAF. To aid this, a board of trustees run by representatives of the Nazi Party, the DAF and the Chamber of Economics was set up to centralize their economic activity.^[81]
 

 

To be clear, the "socialist" in "National Socialist" was literally an attempt to redefine the commonly accepted meaning of the word.  Nazi "socialism" is basically fascism, i.e. the subordination of personal interests to those of the State.

[Old Man]

Meanwhile, even the censored version of the Mueller report includes evidence for numerous counts of obstruction of justice against Individual 1:

 

1. Ordering James Comey to terminate the FBI investigation into Michael Flynn
2. Directing White House counsel to fire Mueller
3. Dictating a message to AG Sessions to limit the Mueller probe
4. Publicly telling/threatening witnesses not to cooperate with the investigation
5. Instructing Cohen to lie to Congress about Trump Tower Moscow
6. Attempting to hide Jr.'s emails exposing his meeting with Russians in exchange for 'dirt' on Clinton

 

As well as an impeachment referral:

 

The conclusion that Congress may apply the obstruction laws to the President's corrupt exercise of the powers of office accords with our constitutional system of checks and balances and the primciple that no person is above the law.

 

Not that the Senate GOP will do anything about it, of course.

 

 

[Old Man]

 

For those of you who'd like a general idea of what was redacted: (spoilered for large image)

 

 

 

[Sociotard]

1 hour ago, Old Man said:

Meanwhile, even the censored version of the Mueller report includes evidence for numerous counts of obstruction of justice against Individual 1:

 

1. Ordering James Comey to terminate the FBI investigation into Michael Flynn
2. Directing White House counsel to fire Mueller
3. Dictating a message to AG Sessions to limit the Mueller probe
4. Publicly telling/threatening witnesses not to cooperate with the investigation
5. Instructing Cohen to lie to Congress about Trump Tower Moscow
6. Attempting to hide Jr.'s emails exposing his meeting with Russians in exchange for 'dirt' on Clinton

 

Pretty sure most of those were already common knowledge, so not a big bombshell.

 

And I haven't seen anything there so extreme I'd like to try out President Pence.

[Old Man]

We know the republic is doomed when the voters are too feckless to even try and remove an openly corrupt and illegitimately elected executive.  When a thorough FBI investigation returns clear evidence of multiple felonies and a recommendation for impeachment and is met with "not a big bombshell", that's when we know America has given up.  Not with a bang, but a whimper.

[Sociotard]

You'd really rather see what President Pence would be like?

[wcw43921]

The virtue--for lack of a better word--of having Mike Pence serve out the rest of this term is that while Trump may have a solid chance of winning a second term, the successor of a President forced to leave office in disgrace would not.  (Remember what happened to Gerald Ford after he took over for Nixon.)  Pence might not even decide to run, should he end up becoming President, and if he does--again, remember what happened to Gerald Ford.

 

The important thing about impeaching Donald Trump, regardless of whether or not it succeeds, is that it sends a clear, resolute message to the rest of the world that not everyone supports this man, that not everyone shares his bigotry, his narcissism, and his hatred, that there are people in this nation and in this government that are willing to oppose him, not just with words, but with actions.  That there are still people in this nation who believe in the self-evident truths as written in the Declaration Of Independence, and the rights we have as human beings and citizens of the United States, as written in the Constitution and its amendments.  That there are still people willing to stand up for those rights, no matter who stands with them or who opposes them.

 

Don't give up on us yet.  As a wiser man than myself said--"It ain't over 'til it's over."

[Old Man]

2 hours ago, Sociotard said:

You'd really rather see what President Pence would be like?

 

There’s no doubt he’d be a disaster, but I have seen no evidence that Mike Pence is a felon or corrupt, so, yes.  America needs to show that the office of the president is not above the law between elections. 

[Ninja-Bear]

47 minutes ago, Old Man said:

 

There’s no doubt he’d be a disaster, but I have seen no evidence that Mike Pence is a felon or corrupt, so, yes.  America needs to show that the office of the president is not above the law between elections. 

And he’s be a disaster why?

[Ninja-Bear]

4 hours ago, Old Man said:

We know the republic is doomed when the voters are too feckless to even try and remove an openly corrupt and illegitimately elected executive.  When a thorough FBI investigation returns clear evidence of multiple felonies and a recommendation for impeachment and is met with "not a big bombshell", that's when we know America has given up.  Not with a bang, but a whimper.

Illegitimately elected? Please take a civics course.

[Ninja-Bear]

1 hour ago, wcw43921 said:

The virtue--for lack of a better word--of having Mike Pence serve out the rest of this term is that while Trump may have a solid chance of winning a second term, the successor of a President forced to leave office in disgrace would not.  (Remember what happened to Gerald Ford after he took over for Nixon.)  Pence might not even decide to run, should he end up becoming President, and if he does--again, remember what happened to Gerald Ford.

 

The important thing about impeaching Donald Trump, regardless of whether or not it succeeds, is that it sends a clear, resolute message to the rest of the world that not everyone supports this man, that not everyone shares his bigotry, his narcissism, and his hatred, that there are people in this nation and in this government that are willing to oppose him, not just with words, but with actions.  That there are still people in this nation who believe in the self-evident truths as written in the Declaration Of Independence, and the rights we have as human beings and citizens of the United States, as written in the Constitution and its amendments.  That there are still people willing to stand up for those rights, no matter who stands with them or who opposes them.

 

Don't give up on us yet.  As a wiser man than myself said--"It ain't over 'til it's over."

Yes apparently he was so much a bigot, everyone wanted a picture with him while he had the Aprrentice show but as soon as he won the Presidency, he is pitted as a bigot. Really? 

[Pattern Ghost]

1 hour ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Yes apparently he was so much a bigot, everyone wanted a picture with him while he had the Aprrentice show but as soon as he won the Presidency, he is pitted as a bigot. Really?  

 

Those accusations pre-date his Presidency by many decades. Here's a Vox article on the subject. (Note: Vox leans Left, but the point here is that this isn't a new thing.)

[Lord Liaden]

"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."

 

- Abraham Lincoln

[csyphrett]

It turns out instead of investigating the White House, Richard Burr was briefing the White House on things that was coming up in front of his committee.

 

Why are the senators from my state crooked unprofessional lap dogs? 

CES 

[Starlord]

Dick Burr?  What an unfortunate and painful name.

[csyphrett]

10 hours ago, Starlord said:

Dick Burr?  What an unfortunate and painful name.

I hadn't really thought about it like that, but ouch

CES

[archer]

On 4/18/2019 at 12:31 AM, csyphrett said:

I said it. I don't see any reason to defend it since DHS had to admit that they lost the parents they separated the kids from and they don't know which kids go where. Steve Miller has a long history of racism and white nationalism. All reports indicate that he's driving the wall and anti immigration programs. And the word is he asked for her to be booted since he was asking for illegal crap to happen. 

 

 

 

2. Lies or half-truths which are determined to be intentionally communicated on your part will not be tolerated.  You present the facts. If you're not sure of the facts, then you don't post.  If you want to post something that you saw and agree with, you will want to make sure you do your due diligence and research it first to ensure that you are not passing along lies and/or half-truths which happen to be in line with your political view. 

[csyphrett]

5 hours ago, archer said:

 

 

 

 

I said it and it was true. If it wasn't true Simon would have banned me. That's how things work. Don't try to lecture me because I don't get paid to care.

CES  

[archer]

9 hours ago, csyphrett said:

I said it and it was true. If it wasn't true Simon would have banned me. That's how things work. Don't try to lecture me because I don't get paid to care.

CES  

 

 

Quote

Before I get into the rules, a little bit about self-policing.  You guys are a good group.  I'm assuming that, political differences aside, you'd like to keep each other around.  So you're going to be the first level of checks that will take place.

[Simon]

And yet here you are creating an issue, ignoring the "debate" and arguing with the poster.

 

Welcome to moderation, archer.

[Hermit]

Anyone see CNN's Townhall for the 2020 Democratic hopefuls? I only caught a part of it.

[wcw43921]

Iowa State Representative Leaves GOP