Starlord Posted June 24, 2019 Report Share Posted June 24, 2019 IMO it's easier to hide corruption and misconduct the farther you go back in time. YMMV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted June 24, 2019 Report Share Posted June 24, 2019 2 hours ago, Toxxus said: The rate of politician slime has been escalating steadily and you can't lay the root cause at the foot of Trump Yeah but I reckon he is the fruiting body of this particular mycelium...it is now more obvious, more prominent and threatening to expel spores that may take decades to completely eradicate.... 🙂 Doc Old Man and Grailknight 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted June 24, 2019 Report Share Posted June 24, 2019 2 hours ago, Toxxus said: This doesn't really seem to differentiate him several previous presidents. Obama, Clinton, Reagan all seemed reasonably immune to backlash from their various failings. Only the Bush's and candidate Hillary seemed to have suffered any real problems from their various foibles and I believe it was because all three lacked the charisma of the others. Whether or not you agreed with their politics or not it is hard to argue against the incredibly high PRE scores of Obama, Clinton and Reagan. Clinton, as I recall, was guilty of statutory sexual harassment (a felony) with Monia Lewinski and walked away from that and multiple rape accusations without any trouble at all. "Failings" and "foibles" are most definitely not in the same class as "crimes," and on that front neither Obama or W. Bush have faced any serious accusations. Bill Clinton had several women accuse him of sexual harassment -- in an announcement set up by Donald Trump during his election campaign -- but they had previously testified under oath to the contrary, so their credibility in accusing him much later was suspect, and no judgement of his guilt was made. But Clinton's affair with Monica Lewinsky, and his initially lying about it, was far from "without any trouble at all." It was a press headline for most of 1998, and led to Clinton's impeachment by the House of Representatives and a 21-day trial by the Senate, which ultimately exonerated him of perjury and obstruction of justice. But he did lose his license to practice law in Arkansas for five years, and is barred from arguing a case before the Supreme Court. And of course the distraction impaired Clinton's ability to govern; while the scandal's effect on Al Gore's run for President remains a subject of debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted June 24, 2019 Report Share Posted June 24, 2019 17 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said: Yeah but I reckon he is the fruiting body of this particular mycelium...it is now more obvious, more prominent and threatening to expel spores that may take decades to completely eradicate.... 🙂 Doc Trump may be unique among American presidents in that he appears to have no shame. No matter what falsehood he's caught in, no matter what he's accused of, he'll attempt to brazen his way out of it, make unfounded personal counterattacks against his accusers to try to discredit them, and loudly and repeatedly proclaim that black is white because he says so and we must trust him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted June 25, 2019 Report Share Posted June 25, 2019 Just an observation...regardless of protestations over the connotations thereto, the technically correct term IS "concentration camps". George Takei, somewhat of an expert on the topic due to personal experience, has it right. Cygnia 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted June 25, 2019 Report Share Posted June 25, 2019 42 minutes ago, megaplayboy said: Just an observation...regardless of protestations over the connotations thereto, the technically correct term IS "concentration camps". George Takei, somewhat of an expert on the topic due to personal experience, has it right. I apologize for bringing this familiar face back in here, but this one's just too relevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted June 25, 2019 Report Share Posted June 25, 2019 The GOP walkout from the Oregon State Senate is another fascinating car crash. It's even got Nazis, sorry, 'patriots'. 🙄 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted June 25, 2019 Report Share Posted June 25, 2019 5 hours ago, megaplayboy said: Just an observation...regardless of protestations over the connotations thereto, the technically correct term IS "concentration camps". George Takei, somewhat of an expert on the topic due to personal experience, has it right. It's almost funny to see how easily the snowflakes are offended by accurate labeling. Except there's nothing funny about toddlers being kept in cages on concrete floors with only mylar blankets to keep them warm. Somali pirates took better care of their kidnap victims. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted June 25, 2019 Report Share Posted June 25, 2019 3 hours ago, Old Man said: It's almost funny to see how easily the snowflakes are offended by accurate labeling. Except there's nothing funny about toddlers being kept in cages on concrete floors with only mylar blankets to keep them warm. Somali pirates took better care of their kidnap victims. There were concentration camps before and after the Nazis...put a group of "undesirables" into detention facilities, concentrating them there. Deprive them of many basic necessities, treat them poorly...even without forced labor or a program of extermination, some of them will die from disease and neglect. But, as many others have observed, "the cruelty IS the point." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxxus Posted June 25, 2019 Report Share Posted June 25, 2019 13 hours ago, megaplayboy said: Just an observation...regardless of protestations over the connotations thereto, the technically correct term IS "concentration camps". George Takei, somewhat of an expert on the topic due to personal experience, has it right. How come they weren't concentration camps when Obama was using them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxxus Posted June 25, 2019 Report Share Posted June 25, 2019 Also, looks like some potential help incoming from the Mexican government. The arrest rate at the border in the last few months has reached absolutely shocking volumes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted June 25, 2019 Report Share Posted June 25, 2019 50 minutes ago, Toxxus said: How come they weren't concentration camps when Obama was using them? Because of differences of scale, duration and quality of treatment. Anyone who treated the children of detainees the way they are currently being treated would be out of a job in the prior administration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grailknight Posted June 25, 2019 Report Share Posted June 25, 2019 1 hour ago, Toxxus said: How come they weren't concentration camps when Obama was using them? Maybe because no children died under Obama. of the 13 total deaths in his administration, all were over 23 years of age and 10 were by force not the conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxxus Posted June 25, 2019 Report Share Posted June 25, 2019 4 minutes ago, megaplayboy said: Because of differences of scale, duration and quality of treatment. Anyone who treated the children of detainees the way they are currently being treated would be out of a job in the prior administration. Given the massive surge in volume it's not a shocker that the quality of treatment has degraded. We're not even through June yet and this year we've absorbed TWICE as many people as we did in all of 2017. We're on pace to have FOUR times the volume of just two years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cygnia Posted June 25, 2019 Report Share Posted June 25, 2019 U.S. Border Patrol Is Refusing Citizen Donations Even as It Holds Migrant Children Without Access to Soap and Toothpaste Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grailknight Posted June 25, 2019 Report Share Posted June 25, 2019 1 minute ago, Toxxus said: Given the massive surge in volume it's not a shocker that the quality of treatment has degraded. We're not even through June yet and this year we've absorbed TWICE as many people as we did in all of 2017. We're on pace to have FOUR times the volume of just two years ago. Both Trump years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted June 25, 2019 Report Share Posted June 25, 2019 29 minutes ago, Toxxus said: Given the massive surge in volume it's not a shocker that the quality of treatment has degraded. The volume doesn't excuse it. You take custody of a person, you are responsible for their well-being, full stop, no excuses. Old Man, Pariah, Ternaugh and 1 other 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxxus Posted June 25, 2019 Report Share Posted June 25, 2019 50 minutes ago, Grailknight said: Both Trump years. Would you be able to expand on this thought a bit? They were obviously Trump years so I'm not sure what you're trying to convey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxxus Posted June 25, 2019 Report Share Posted June 25, 2019 24 minutes ago, Pattern Ghost said: The volume doesn't excuse it. You take custody of a person, you are responsible for their well-being, full stop, no excuses. Sounds great. You and I both know that's not how reality works. When the speed of incoming people quadruples in that short of a time period there are going to be logistical issues. What if it was 10 million people per year instead of 1 million? Would you still be expecting perfection? Medical doctors and nurses who are all highly educated and trained are responsible for 250,000 fatal errors per year... Analyzing medical death rate data over an eight-year period, Johns Hopkins patient safety experts have calculated that more than 250,000 deaths per year are due to medical error in the U.S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted June 25, 2019 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2019 So you believe that the current treatment of refugees seeking asylum (and crossing into the US illegally - a legitimate misdemeanor) is acceptable? Or do you believe that it is acceptable because Obama used detention centers (he did it too, therefore it must be ok)? Under Obama, the detention centers were used for exactly that - detaining (for typically minimal time) under the now-criticized "catch and release" policy. Remember complaining about that? I believe you did a while back....though I could be confusing you with someone else. Once you end the "catch and release" policy and enact "zero tolerance" you change detention centers into concentration camps - where those of a particular ethnic background are rounded up and detained indefinitely, under conditions that wouldn't pass muster in a prison. This is only compounded by the humanitarian crisis being faced by refugees fleeing the violence in the South and Central Americas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoloOfEarth Posted June 25, 2019 Report Share Posted June 25, 2019 2 hours ago, Toxxus said: How come they weren't concentration camps when Obama was using them? 1 hour ago, megaplayboy said: Because of differences of scale, duration and quality of treatment. Anyone who treated the children of detainees the way they are currently being treated would be out of a job in the prior administration. 1 hour ago, Toxxus said: Given the massive surge in volume it's not a shocker that the quality of treatment has degraded. We're not even through June yet and this year we've absorbed TWICE as many people as we did in all of 2017. We're on pace to have FOUR times the volume of just two years ago. 12 minutes ago, Toxxus said: Would you be able to expand on this thought a bit? They were obviously Trump years so I'm not sure what you're trying to convey. I'm not speaking for Grailknight, but I'd think a discussion about differences of scale between Obama's and Trump's administrations might benefit from numbers that covered Obama's administration as well. Here's something from the Department of Homeland Security's annual report for 2017: Toxxus' figure for 2017 apprehensions is the second line in that table, far right column. It should be pointed out that the 2018 figure of 404,142 is actually *less* than the apprehensions for 2013 and 2014 (both Obama years). The 2019 YTD number of 598,714 is certainly higher than the highest listed here (486,651 in 2014), by roughly 23%. So I don't think it's really about the volume of detainees being apprehended. As Simon points out, the big difference is in how the detainees are being handled. Pattern Ghost and Old Man 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxxus Posted June 25, 2019 Report Share Posted June 25, 2019 7 minutes ago, BoloOfEarth said: The 2019 YTD number of 598,714 is certainly higher than the highest listed here (486,651 in 2014), by roughly 23%. It's 23% higher in June than the entire year of 2014. So in complete year terms it's about 150% higher. If you think a 150% increase in volume won't affect service quality - not sure what would convince you. What major difference in how detainees are being handled are you seeing? Just a reminder - While the Orange Man has kept Guantanamo Bay open - the previous administration promised to close it in a single year - and kept it open for eight years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted June 25, 2019 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2019 4 minutes ago, Toxxus said: It's 23% higher in June than the entire year of 2014. So in complete year terms it's about 150% higher. If you think a 150% increase in volume won't affect service quality - not sure what would convince you. What major difference in how detainees are being handled are you seeing? Just a reminder - While the Orange Man has kept Guantanamo Bay open - the previous administration promised to close it in a single year - and kept it open for eight years. Are you intentionally ignoring the fact that the separation of children from parents, the conditions that refugees are being kept in, and the "zero tolerance" policy are not new complaints to this year? Because...that would be a violation of the rules of this thread and something that you and I have discussed already. You're getting close to that ban button. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxxus Posted June 25, 2019 Report Share Posted June 25, 2019 22 minutes ago, Simon said: So you believe that the current treatment of refugees seeking asylum (and crossing into the US illegally - a legitimate misdemeanor) is acceptable? Or do you believe that it is acceptable because Obama used detention centers (he did it too, therefore it must be ok)? Under Obama, the detention centers were used for exactly that - detaining (for typically minimal time) under the now-criticized "catch and release" policy. Remember complaining about that? I believe you did a while back....though I could be confusing you with someone else. Once you end the "catch and release" policy and enact "zero tolerance" you change detention centers into concentration camps - where those of a particular ethnic background are rounded up and detained indefinitely, under conditions that wouldn't pass muster in a prison. This is only compounded by the humanitarian crisis being faced by refugees fleeing the violence in the South and Central Americas. No, I don't like the current setup. I didn't like the old setup either. We shouldn't be holding anyone because they should be getting repelled at the border. However, out of respect to millions of people who got Zyklon-B gassed and cremated in actual concentration camps, I find the term to be grotesque overkill for what amounts to low quality prison. They are not concentration camps by any historically reasonable use of the word. They are not rounding up "those of a particular ethnic background" either as I'm sure anyone from China, the Phillipines, Zimbabwe or Norway sneaking over the southern border ends up in the same facility. Refugees cannot be fleeing violence in the South and Central Americas with the exception of Mexican citizens. Otherwise an actual refugee seeking political asylum should be stopping at the first country they can reach and applying for asylum. Passing through several other countries to apply for asylum at America's Southern border is called shopping. It is an economic decision and not one based on escaping violence or persecution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted June 25, 2019 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2019 Your definition of refugee doesn't really gibe with the rest of the world. And your decrying of the use of the term concentration camp would put you at odds with Godwin himself, who has come out and stated that yes, they are in fact concentration camps by definition. So, again, I would suggest you follow the rules of this thread or stop posting (entirely). Doing otherwise is not going to end well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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