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On 6/23/2019 at 1:14 AM, Old Man said:

 

Trump is credited with telling over ten thousand lies since his inauguration (so far), but don’t forget that the lies started 17 years ago with a hunt for WMDs in Iraq. 

 

I am firmly of the opinion that if Bush and Blair were corrupt enough to go to war on the basis of lying about WMDs that they would have been corrupt enough to ensure that we found WMDs.  I think that Dean's right in that no-one believed Iraq when they said they had none and, I believe it is correct that, Iraq was, through back-channels telling its local enemies that it remained in control of sufficient quantities of chemical weapons.  If they had none, they should have been more open with weapons inspectors, though that would have made them weaker in the local political context.

 

I am concerned with the opinion that all politicians lie and that Trump is no different in that.  I am constantly amazed at how he will dispute any issue that does not suit his message, even those that most of us would readily accept as factual.  My bigger concern is that I am beginning to see other politicians take the same tactic.  Look at those politicians in the UK defending Boris Johnson (police were called to his girlfriend's flat due to domestic disturbance) where, because police have not arrested anyone are talking like there was no need for anyone to be calling the police so it must all have been made up by politically motivated opponents.  Dangerous stuff.

 

Doc

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2 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

I am firmly of the opinion that if Bush and Blair were corrupt enough to go to war on the basis of lying about WMDs that they would have been corrupt enough to ensure that we found WMDs.  I think that Dean's right in that no-one believed Iraq when they said they had none and, I believe it is correct that, Iraq was, through back-channels telling its local enemies that it remained in control of sufficient quantities of chemical weapons.  If they had none, they should have been more open with weapons inspectors, though that would have made them weaker in the local political context.

 

It was Saddam's tactical calculation to publicly proclaim Iraq had no WMDs, while letting the "unofficial" word get out that it did. However, from what I've read from officials in the W. Bush administration after the fact, Bush started with the assumption that Iraq did have those weapons, and instructed the CIA to find evidence to support it. I doubt he ever intended to outright lie to the American people, but his approach to gathering intelligence biased it from the outset.

 

2 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

I am concerned with the opinion that all politicians lie and that Trump is no different in that.  I am constantly amazed at how he will dispute any issue that does not suit his message, even those that most of us would readily accept as factual.  My bigger concern is that I am beginning to see other politicians take the same tactic.  Look at those politicians in the UK defending Boris Johnson (police were called to his girlfriend's flat due to domestic disturbance) where, because police have not arrested anyone are talking like there was no need for anyone to be calling the police so it must all have been made up by politically motivated opponents.  Dangerous stuff.

 

I agree that the general public across democracies have long assumed that politicians lie. To be fair to them as a class, sometimes leaders deal with situations and information so sensitive they have to lie about it, or at least conceal the truth; but lying for their own selfish benefit is now considered a given.

 

What was different about Trump is that his base of support appears immune to any revelations of his deceit or reprehensible actions. Before Trump even the allegation of any one of the many misconducts he's been accused of would have sunk the career of any other politician. But Trump's base, and his party, either don't believe them or don't care. This has helped foster an unprecedented political climate in which the truth doesn't even matter any more. Of course a con man like Donald Trump would encourage such an environment, but politicians around the world are now emboldened to make demonstrably false public statements to advance their goals, because Trump's success has demonstrated that enough people will believe them if it's what they want to hear, and enough of their fellow elected officials will support them if it's to their benefit.

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1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

What was different about Trump is that his base of support appears immune to any revelations of his deceit or reprehensible actions.

 

This doesn't really seem to differentiate him several previous presidents.

 

Obama, Clinton, Reagan all seemed reasonably immune to backlash from their various failings.  Only the Bush's and candidate Hillary seemed to have suffered any real problems from their various foibles and I believe it was because all three lacked the charisma of the others.

 

Whether or not you agreed with their politics or not it is hard to argue against the incredibly high PRE scores of Obama, Clinton and Reagan.

 

Clinton, as I recall, was guilty of statutory sexual harassment (a felony) with Monia Lewinski and walked away from that and multiple rape accusations without any trouble at all.

Hillary is recorded threatening to silence the accusers and she missed being president by the slimmest of margins.

 

The rate of politician slime has been escalating steadily and you can't lay the root cause at the foot of Trump.  It's been rising so rapidly that the public voted for a non-politician.

 

It's hard to forget that the DNC completely f*cked Bernie Sanders and made sure Hillary was going to be the candidate.  The corruption is everywhere.

 

Here's a fun chart:

 

PS:  I didn't vote for Trump.

 

image.png.dedd4fc52e0e8595c17e3171d50317b8.png

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2 hours ago, Toxxus said:

The rate of politician slime has been escalating steadily and you can't lay the root cause at the foot of Trump

 

Yeah but I reckon he is the fruiting body of this particular mycelium...it is now more obvious, more prominent and threatening to expel spores that may take decades to completely eradicate....

 

🙂

 

Doc

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2 hours ago, Toxxus said:

 

This doesn't really seem to differentiate him several previous presidents.

 

Obama, Clinton, Reagan all seemed reasonably immune to backlash from their various failings.  Only the Bush's and candidate Hillary seemed to have suffered any real problems from their various foibles and I believe it was because all three lacked the charisma of the others.

 

Whether or not you agreed with their politics or not it is hard to argue against the incredibly high PRE scores of Obama, Clinton and Reagan.

 

Clinton, as I recall, was guilty of statutory sexual harassment (a felony) with Monia Lewinski and walked away from that and multiple rape accusations without any trouble at all.

 

 

"Failings" and "foibles" are most definitely not in the same class as "crimes," and on that front neither Obama or W. Bush have faced any serious accusations. Bill Clinton had several women accuse him of sexual harassment -- in an announcement set up by Donald Trump during his election campaign -- but they had previously testified under oath to the contrary, so their credibility in accusing him much later was suspect, and no judgement of his guilt was made. But Clinton's affair with Monica Lewinsky, and his initially lying about it, was far from "without any trouble at all." It was a press headline for most of 1998, and led to Clinton's impeachment by the House of Representatives and a 21-day trial by the Senate, which ultimately exonerated him of perjury and obstruction of justice. But he did lose his license to practice law in Arkansas for five years, and is barred from arguing a case before the Supreme Court. And of course the distraction impaired Clinton's ability to govern; while the scandal's effect on Al Gore's run for President remains a subject of debate.

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17 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

Yeah but I reckon he is the fruiting body of this particular mycelium...it is now more obvious, more prominent and threatening to expel spores that may take decades to completely eradicate....

 

🙂

 

Doc

 

Trump may be unique among American presidents in that he appears to have no shame. No matter what falsehood he's caught in, no matter what he's accused of, he'll attempt to brazen his way out of it, make unfounded personal counterattacks against his accusers to try to discredit them, and loudly and repeatedly proclaim that black is white because he says so and we must trust him.

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42 minutes ago, megaplayboy said:

Just an observation...regardless of protestations over the connotations thereto, the technically correct term IS "concentration camps".  George Takei, somewhat of an expert on the topic due to personal experience, has it right.

 

I apologize for bringing this familiar face back in here, but this one's just too relevant.

 

 

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5 hours ago, megaplayboy said:

Just an observation...regardless of protestations over the connotations thereto, the technically correct term IS "concentration camps".  George Takei, somewhat of an expert on the topic due to personal experience, has it right.

 

It's almost funny to see how easily the snowflakes are offended by accurate labeling.  Except there's nothing funny about toddlers being kept in cages on concrete floors with only mylar blankets to keep them warm.  Somali pirates took better care of their kidnap victims.

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3 hours ago, Old Man said:

 

 

It's almost funny to see how easily the snowflakes are offended by accurate labeling.  Except there's nothing funny about toddlers being kept in cages on concrete floors with only mylar blankets to keep them warm.  Somali pirates took better care of their kidnap victims.

There were concentration camps before and after the Nazis...put a group of "undesirables" into detention facilities, concentrating them there.  Deprive them of many basic necessities, treat them poorly...even without forced labor or a program of extermination, some of them will die from disease and neglect.  

But, as many others have observed, "the cruelty IS the point."

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13 hours ago, megaplayboy said:

Just an observation...regardless of protestations over the connotations thereto, the technically correct term IS "concentration camps".  George Takei, somewhat of an expert on the topic due to personal experience, has it right.

 

How come they weren't concentration camps when Obama was using them?

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Also, looks like some potential help incoming from the Mexican government.

 

The arrest rate at the border in the last few months has reached absolutely shocking volumes.

 

image.png.5058a0d9e5b4dd060764e105288a8cc4.png

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50 minutes ago, Toxxus said:

 

How come they weren't concentration camps when Obama was using them?

Because of differences of scale, duration and quality of treatment.   Anyone who treated the children of detainees the way they are currently being treated would be out of a job in the prior administration. 

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1 hour ago, Toxxus said:

 

How come they weren't concentration camps when Obama was using them?

 

Maybe because no children died under Obama. of the 13 total deaths in his administration, all were over 23 years of age and 10 were by force not the conditions.

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4 minutes ago, megaplayboy said:

Because of differences of scale, duration and quality of treatment.   Anyone who treated the children of detainees the way they are currently being treated would be out of a job in the prior administration. 

 

Given the massive surge in volume it's not a shocker that the quality of treatment has degraded.

 

We're not even through June yet and this year we've absorbed TWICE as many people as we did in all of 2017.  We're on pace to have FOUR times the volume of just two years ago.

 

 

 

image.thumb.png.9bf179590138d5ccdad9513b8077bfcf.png

 

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1 minute ago, Toxxus said:

 

Given the massive surge in volume it's not a shocker that the quality of treatment has degraded.

 

We're not even through June yet and this year we've absorbed TWICE as many people as we did in all of 2017.  We're on pace to have FOUR times the volume of just two years ago.

 

 

 

image.thumb.png.9bf179590138d5ccdad9513b8077bfcf.png

 

 

Both Trump years.

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29 minutes ago, Toxxus said:

Given the massive surge in volume it's not a shocker that the quality of treatment has degraded.

 

The volume doesn't excuse it. You take custody of a person, you are responsible for their well-being, full stop, no excuses.

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50 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

Both Trump years.

 

Would you be able to expand on this thought a bit?

 

They were obviously Trump years so I'm not sure what you're trying to convey.

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24 minutes ago, Pattern Ghost said:

 

The volume doesn't excuse it. You take custody of a person, you are responsible for their well-being, full stop, no excuses.

 

Sounds great.  You and I both know that's not how reality works.  When the speed of incoming people quadruples in that short of a time period there are going to be logistical issues.

 

What if it was 10 million people per year instead of 1 million?  Would you still be expecting perfection?

 

Medical doctors and nurses who are all highly educated and trained are responsible for 250,000 fatal errors per year...

 

Analyzing medical death rate data over an eight-year period, Johns Hopkins patient safety experts have calculated that more than 250,000 deaths per year are due to medical error in the U.S

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So you believe that the current treatment of refugees seeking asylum (and crossing into the US illegally - a legitimate misdemeanor) is acceptable?

Or do you believe that it is acceptable because Obama used detention centers (he did it too, therefore it must be ok)? Under Obama, the detention centers were used for exactly that - detaining (for typically minimal time) under the now-criticized "catch and release" policy.  Remember complaining about that?  I believe you did a while back....though I could be confusing you with someone else.

 

Once you end the "catch and release" policy and enact "zero tolerance" you change detention centers into concentration camps - where those of a particular ethnic background are rounded up and detained indefinitely, under conditions that wouldn't pass muster in a prison. This is only compounded by the humanitarian crisis being faced by refugees fleeing the violence in the South and Central Americas.

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2 hours ago, Toxxus said:

How come they weren't concentration camps when Obama was using them?

 

1 hour ago, megaplayboy said:

Because of differences of scale, duration and quality of treatment.   Anyone who treated the children of detainees the way they are currently being treated would be out of a job in the prior administration. 

 

1 hour ago, Toxxus said:

Given the massive surge in volume it's not a shocker that the quality of treatment has degraded.

 

We're not even through June yet and this year we've absorbed TWICE as many people as we did in all of 2017.  We're on pace to have FOUR times the volume of just two years ago.

 

12 minutes ago, Toxxus said:

Would you be able to expand on this thought a bit?

 

They were obviously Trump years so I'm not sure what you're trying to convey.

 

I'm not speaking for Grailknight, but I'd think a discussion about differences of scale between Obama's and Trump's administrations might benefit from numbers that covered Obama's administration as well. 

 

Here's something from the Department of Homeland Security's annual report for 2017:

image.thumb.png.b10f7b27095793bad382b2194c76db01.png

 

Toxxus' figure for 2017 apprehensions is the second line in that table, far right column.  It should be pointed out that the 2018 figure of 404,142 is actually *less* than the apprehensions for 2013 and 2014 (both Obama years).  The 2019 YTD number of 598,714 is certainly higher than the highest listed here (486,651 in 2014), by roughly 23%.

 

So I don't think it's really about the volume of detainees being apprehended.  As Simon points out, the big difference is in how the detainees are being handled. 

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7 minutes ago, BoloOfEarth said:

The 2019 YTD number of 598,714 is certainly higher than the highest listed here (486,651 in 2014), by roughly 23%.

 

It's 23% higher in June than the entire year of 2014.  So in complete year terms it's about 150% higher.

 

If you think a 150% increase in volume won't affect service quality - not sure what would convince you.

 

What major difference in how detainees are being handled are you seeing?

 

Just a reminder - While the Orange Man has kept Guantanamo Bay open - the previous administration promised to close it in a single year - and kept it open for eight years.

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