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Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)


Simon
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4 minutes ago, Toxxus said:

 

It's 23% higher in June than the entire year of 2014.  So in complete year terms it's about 150% higher.

 

If you think a 150% increase in volume won't affect service quality - not sure what would convince you.

 

What major difference in how detainees are being handled are you seeing?

 

Just a reminder - While the Orange Man has kept Guantanamo Bay open - the previous administration promised to close it in a single year - and kept it open for eight years.

Are you intentionally ignoring the fact that the separation of children from parents, the conditions that refugees are being kept in, and the "zero tolerance" policy are not new complaints to this year?  Because...that would be a violation of the rules of this thread and something that you and I have discussed already.

You're getting close to that ban button.

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22 minutes ago, Simon said:

So you believe that the current treatment of refugees seeking asylum (and crossing into the US illegally - a legitimate misdemeanor) is acceptable?

Or do you believe that it is acceptable because Obama used detention centers (he did it too, therefore it must be ok)? Under Obama, the detention centers were used for exactly that - detaining (for typically minimal time) under the now-criticized "catch and release" policy.  Remember complaining about that?  I believe you did a while back....though I could be confusing you with someone else.

 

Once you end the "catch and release" policy and enact "zero tolerance" you change detention centers into concentration camps - where those of a particular ethnic background are rounded up and detained indefinitely, under conditions that wouldn't pass muster in a prison. This is only compounded by the humanitarian crisis being faced by refugees fleeing the violence in the South and Central Americas.

 

No, I don't like the current setup.  I didn't like the old setup either.

 

We shouldn't be holding anyone because they should be getting repelled at the border.

 

However, out of respect to millions of people who got Zyklon-B gassed and cremated in actual concentration camps, I find the term to be grotesque overkill for what amounts to low quality prison.  They are not concentration camps by any historically reasonable use of the word.

 

They are not rounding up "those of a particular ethnic background" either as I'm sure anyone from China, the Phillipines, Zimbabwe or Norway sneaking over the southern border ends up in the same facility.

 

Refugees cannot be fleeing violence in the South and Central Americas with the exception of Mexican citizens.  Otherwise an actual refugee seeking political asylum should be stopping at the first country they can reach and applying for asylum.

Passing through several other countries to apply for asylum at America's Southern border is called shopping.  It is an economic decision and not one based on escaping violence or persecution.

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Your definition of refugee doesn't really gibe with the rest of the world.

 

And your decrying of the use of the term concentration camp would put you at odds with Godwin himself, who has come out and stated that yes, they are in fact concentration camps by definition.

So, again, I would suggest you follow the rules of this thread or stop posting (entirely). Doing otherwise is not going to end well.

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3 minutes ago, Simon said:

Are you intentionally ignoring the fact that the separation of children from parents, the conditions that refugees are being kept in, and the "zero tolerance" policy are not new complaints to this year?  Because...that would be a violation of the rules of this thread and something that you and I have discussed already.

You're getting close to that ban button.

 

No, I'm not intentionally ignoring those things.

 

I'm legitimately asking what people think the difference is that converts prison to concentration camp.  Actual prisoners all across America are separated from their kids.  If you get rowdy on the weekend and end up in lockup for a couple days - you will be separated from your kids.

 

However, I am probably the last remotely conservative voice in this thread because you keep threatening the ban hammer on anyone who's guilty of having a different political view from yours.

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9 minutes ago, Toxxus said:

 

It's 23% higher in June than the entire year of 2014.  So in complete year terms it's about 150% higher.

 

If you think a 150% increase in volume won't affect service quality - not sure what would convince you.

 

What major difference in how detainees are being handled are you seeing?

 

Just a reminder - While the Orange Man has kept Guantanamo Bay open - the previous administration promised to close it in a single year - and kept it open for eight years.

 

RE: projected year-end numbers, that's a decent possibility (and a good point).  However, my thought is that this higher number of apprehensions has less to do with the number of people crossing the border this year as opposed to prior years, than it does with the onus being put upon the USBP by Trump & company to lock up every possible "potential illegal immigrant" in sight.  Perhaps the net is being cast a little too wide?

 

As to difference in how detainees are being handled, I assumed my reference to Simon's post would refer to "catch & release" short-term detainment vs. "zero tolerance" long-term detainment.  So yes, I would expect that a marked increase in volume - especially long-term detainment - would affect service quality.  That's self-evident. 

 

What you might want to be asking is, Didn't anybody in the administration think that vastly increasing the detainment time and number of arrests, without increasing funding for said detainment, would affect service quality?  Either they didn't think of that beforehand or, as I suspect, they really didn't care all that much if it did.

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I have to address one point that I keep reading and hearing mistakenly asserted. People entering the United States at other than an established checkpoint, who claim refugee status and request asylum, are not entering the country illegally. American law grants them the right to enter and remain within the United States until their claim for asylum is reviewed. This is done because people suffering persecution in their home countries are rarely allowed to travel freely to points of entry in potential sanctuary countries.

 

Moreover, asylum seekers who enter the United States between those points of entry can exit custody on payment of a bond, and an immigration judge has the jurisdiction to reduce or even waive the bond if circumstances warrant. OTOH people arriving at a point of entry can't pay a bond -- their disposition is wholly at the discretion of ICE officials. Given the publicized attitude of the current American government toward immigrants, that incentivizes crossing the American border at some other location.

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1 hour ago, Toxxus said:

 

No, I'm not intentionally ignoring those things.

 

I'm legitimately asking what people think the difference is that converts prison to concentration camp.  Actual prisoners all across America are separated from their kids.  If you get rowdy on the weekend and end up in lockup for a couple days - you will be separated from your kids.

 

However, I am probably the last remotely conservative voice in this thread because you keep threatening the ban hammer on anyone who's guilty of having a different political view from yours.

 

I would call putting the children themselves in prison a good starting point for differentiation.

 

EDIT: I apologize for quoting Toxxus when he no longer has an opportunity for rebuttal.

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1 hour ago, Toxxus said:

However, out of respect to millions of people who got Zyklon-B gassed and cremated in actual concentration camps, I find the term to be grotesque overkill for what amounts to low quality prison.  They are not concentration camps by any historically reasonable use of the word.

 

 

Quoting this just to point out the strange thought process that requires that we wait until mass murder is committed before we can call a concentration camp a concentration camp.  I think Japanese-Americans, especially the ones currently protesting at Fort Sill, would take issue with that definition.

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Dang it, AOHell is misbehaving again. Ignore previous double-post, which I can neither edit nor remove.

 

People might be interested in the June 22, 2019 issue of The Economist, which has devoted a special report to Texas and California as contrasting views of America's future. As the leader article notes, these two states wield great influence through their population and economic heft. They are both already majority-minority. They are both doing some things well, offering potential models for the rest of the country. They both do some things badly, offering warnings. Let us hope, as the editors suggest, the US can learn to combine the good of each while eschewing the bad.

 

Dean Shomshak

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Dang it, AOHell is misbehaving again. Ignore previous double-post, which I can neither edit nor remove.

 

People might be interested in the June 22, 2019 issue of The Economist, which has devoted a special report to Texas and California as contrasting views of America's future. As the leader article notes, these two states wield great influence through their population and economic heft. They are both already majority-minority. They are both doing some things well, offering potential models for the rest of the country. They both do some things badly, offering warnings. Let us hope, as the editors suggest, the US can learn to combine the good of each while eschewing the bad.

 

Dean Shomshak

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6 hours ago, Old Man said:

 

" Trump’s only true skill is the con; his only fundamental belief is that the United States is the birthright of straight, white, Christian men, and his only real, authentic pleasure is in cruelty. It is that cruelty, and the delight it brings them, that binds his most ardent supporters to him, in shared scorn for those they hate and fear: immigrants, black voters, feminists, and treasonous white men who empathize with any of those who would steal their birthright. The president’s ability to execute that cruelty through word and deed makes them euphoric. It makes them feel good, it makes them feel proud, it makes them feel happy, it makes them feel united. And as long as he makes them feel that way, they will let him get away with anything, no matter what it costs them."

 

I hate to consider that this is truth. But it does explain a lot that has baffled me. :(

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9 hours ago, Toxxus said:

Sounds great.  You and I both know that's not how reality works.  When the speed of incoming people quadruples in that short of a time period there are going to be logistical issues.

 

I think you didn't hear the "no excuses" part. I've worked with prisoners. There are no excuses here. And none of this looks like "logistical issues" to me.


EDIT: I'm going to leave this here, but when I posted it, I hadn't read to the point in the thread that Toxxus had been banned. I feel I should point that out, as it's in pretty poor taste (IMO) to respond to someone who can't answer.

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9 hours ago, Simon said:

(and crossing into the US illegally - a legitimate misdemeanor)

 

I saw some special that said that crossing illegally is actually just a civil infraction, putting it on the level of a traffic ticket, not even a crime that merits punishment. Not sure how accurate this is, but it was a network news source, not random internet chatter.

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It's accurate.  Camp conditions were already harsh under Obama, but what changed under Trump and Sessions is that they instituted a zero-tolerance/100% prosecution policy.  So detainees who would have been deported under Obama are now being imprisoned indefinitely under the current regime.*  I have yet to hear a rationale for separating thousands of children from their parents and imprisoning them without even attempting to record which child belongs with which parent or where any of them are at any given moment.  Aside from "the cruelty is the point", anyway.

 

 

* cough habeascorpus cough

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