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4 minutes ago, Pariah said:

I remember when President Obama was elected that it became popular among some to post "I wasn't born in a Socialist country, but I'll probably die in one."

 

Is it time to start posting "I wasn't born in a Fascist country, but I'll probably die in one."?

 

I think if it gets to that point the more honorable response might be

 

"I wasn't born in a fascist country, but I worry I'll die trying to prevent my grand kids from doing so."

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7 hours ago, Hermit said:

 

Absolutely! When folks are willing to shed their blood on our country's behalf, I call that a pretty damn good show of faith. If I let my mind go a bit wild, I have to wonder if it's also not a slap on McCain who was IIRC born on a base in Panama.

 

 

I wouldn't doubt it at all.  We know Trumpty-Dumpty is that petty.

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16 hours ago, Hermit said:

 

Absolutely! When folks are willing to shed their blood on our country's behalf, I call that a pretty damn good show of faith. If I let my mind go a bit wild, I have to wonder if it's also not a slap on McCain who was IIRC born on a base in Panama.

 

 

I have seen a few people point to Steve Miller as the architect for this. Apparently if you aren't born inside the continental US, you aren't good enough to be a citizen to him.

CES 

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Meanwhile Boris Johnson is not having fun in Parliament

Part 1. MPs back a bill aimed at blocking a no-deal Brexit with the European Community

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49580185

Johnson said if this happened then he would call a general election for mid-October. However he needs 2/3 of all the MPs in Parliament to do this. The Labour party abstained from the vote.

So Part 2 did he get other MPs to agree ? What do you think

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49584907

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On 9/3/2019 at 10:35 AM, Hermit said:

 

 If I let my mind go a bit wild, I have to wonder if it's also not a slap on McCain who was IIRC born on a base in Panama.

 

 

All Things Considered asked this question. Apparently it would not have blocked John McCain's citizenship. (One can only speculate whether anyone thought it might have done so.)

 

But I suspect that just by complicating the requirements of birth citizenship, it would increase fear and discourage those who hope their children would be born citizens.Dean Shomshak

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I have always pooh-pooh-ed the idea that we might be living in a simulation but the way politics have been going inthe UK have made me reconsider.  It feels like I am in a political soap opera where the writers have run out of ideas and we have jumped the shark.  Two events this morning to add to that feeling.

 

One, Boris Johnson, the Prime Minister, tells Conservative party members that if they do not support the party in a No Deal Brexit and the expulsion of 21 of their most senior  and distinguished MPs from the party then they "are not welcome in the party" and "not welcome to vote for us".  It is an unbelievable story that the Prime Minister might do such a thing.  That is then followed by the Prime Minister's brother (also a Conservative MP and a Minister in the Government) deciding to resign as a Minister, step down immediately as an MP and to formally quit the party. (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49594793)

 

I would not have believed it in West Wing or House of Cards as believable story lines, why should I believe it just because I am told it is "real life"!!!!

 

Doc

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8 minutes ago, L. Marcus said:

These are extraordinary times.

 

I am feeling slightly better - the first element to my existential crisis (the PM telling his party that they might not be welcome to vote for the party) was a spoof news story that sucked me in.  Is a sign of how extraordinary times are that I was willing to believe such an outrageous statement...I only found out because I was determined to get primary sources for it (good habits).

 

Doc

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Harlan Ellison was right: Reality and fantasy have traded places.

 

Speaking of Fake News, whether spoof or malign, the Septembe issue of Scientific American is devoted to "Truth, Lies and Uncertainty." Some articles are relevant to this thread, such as the ones about "Contagious Dishonesty" and "How to Defraud Democracy."

 

Dean Shomshak

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Harlan Ellison was right: Reality and fantasy have traded places.

 

Speaking of Fake News, whether spoof or malign, the Septembe issue of Scientific American is devoted to "Truth, Lies and Uncertainty." Some articles are relevant to this thread, such as the ones about "Contagious Dishonesty" and "How to Defraud Democracy."

 

Dean Shomshak

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12 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

I am feeling slightly better - the first element to my existential crisis (the PM telling his party that they might not be welcome to vote for the party) was a spoof news story that sucked me in.  Is a sign of how extraordinary times are that I was willing to believe such an outrageous statement...I only found out because I was determined to get primary sources for it (good habits).

 

Doc

 

I'm a fan of the British system "taking the whip away" mechanism for formally expelling MP's from a political party. The US system is very nebulous: candidates decide which party they want to run in and the party for the most part doesn't have a say in who is allowed to run to be their party's nominee for an office. Someone eventually wins the nomination, sometimes the winner is someone who has never supported that political party (whether having supported the other major political party or never having expressed any interest in politics). Then if that person is elected to office, she's automatically part of the party caucus and there's not a real mechanism in place for expelling her from the party if she wants to continue to state that she's a member of that party. The best a political party can do on the national level is denounce her statements, marginalize her, and not invite her to attend meetings...but as far as the public is concerned, she remains a party member.

 

Now to the specifics of the British situation:

 

I don't think taking the whip away from those MP's means much. If those MP's are philosophically part of the (British) Conservative Party except for not following the leadership's no-deal Brexit, it's likely that the MP's will be welcomed back into the party after Brexit is no longer the top hot button issue of the day.

 

As far as Brexit "deal or no-deal" goes, the government has been virtually paralyzed due to the controversy over what to do with the Brexit issue. I'm beginning to wonder if the country might not be better off to go off the deep end with a no-deal Brexit than to continue with endless deadlock. The argument against the no-deal Brexit is the initial disruption it'll cause. But if the government endlessly continues to tie itself in knots over figuring out what to do, that's going to continue to create its own disruptions.

 

Britain is quietly moving forward on how to internally deal with administrative disruptions due to Brexit. Just this week it decided that the freedom of movement which comes with EU membership will be replaced with "Leave to Remain". That basically says any EU person arriving in the UK before the end of 2020 will be allowed to stay until December 2023. And that EU people who have been permanent residents in the UK have until December 2020 to apply to permanently stay.

 

In any case, the "no-deal with the EU" part isn't going to stand even if the exit itself is no-deal. Britain and the EU will figure out pretty quickly how the rest of their relationships with each other are going to work because they'll both be under a hell of a lot more pressure to reach accommodations with each other once trade grinds to a halt.

 

 

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5 hours ago, archer said:

I don't think taking the whip away from those MP's means much. If those MP's are philosophically part of the (British) Conservative Party except for not following the leadership's no-deal Brexit, it's likely that the MP's will be welcomed back into the party after Brexit is no longer the top hot button issue of the day.

 

Well, if we go for a General Election in the next month or so, those people will not be allowed to stand as Conservative candidates, effectively ending their political careers.

 

The expulsion of those people, who are effectively the most moderate of conservatives, is a sign to voters that the party has lurched to the right and was, I think, a key factor in the Prime Minister's brother resigning from both the Government and the Party.  That resignation will be very significant in any campaigning in the future.  The Prime Minister indicated, when Ed Miliband stood against his brother David for the Labour leadership, that only a socialist would do such a thing to his brother.  It is possible that action by Ed contributed to him losing the 2015 General Election.

 

Of course, the Conservatives ran that election on a message of strong and stable government as opposed to chaos with Labour...

 

Doc

 

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6 hours ago, L. Marcus said:

Robert Mugabe has passed on.

 

From what I can gather from the various epitaphs being offered, the legacy of Robert Mugabe's life seemingly can be summarized as: years of hope and struggle, a moment of triumph and optimism, followed by decades of failure and suffering.

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