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16 hours ago, Old Man said:

180 civilians have perished in Tehran when a Ukrainian Boeing 737 spontaneously exploded after takeoff, in a city where every antiaircraft missile battery was on high alert.

 

Update: 176 passengers and crew killed, no survivors. It's unclear if the  'plane did explode, but it crashed only minutes after takeoff. No transmission from the crew, so no word of what might have happened just before. No one is making any official statements as to the cause until there's an investigation.

 

63 of the dead were Canadian citizens, including multiple family members and at least two children. Most of them were of Iranian descent or dual Iranian/Canadians. The Iranian community in Canada is pretty close-knit, and this has hit them hard. :(

 

The Iranian government has said they won't hand over the black boxes from the crashed aircraft, and won't allow American or Boeing officials access to them. Their trust in impartial findings is low. The Canadian government would like to be involved in the investigation, and is one of the world leaders in this type of forensics; but currently has no diplomatic representation in Iran. But Ukraine would very much like Canada to participate, and may be able to gain that concession.

 

 

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Photos of the wreckage show dozens of unmistakable shrapnel holes. There is no question that the plane was shot down. 
 

Tehran -> Kyiv -> Canada appears to have been a popular route for Iranian-Canadians. Unfortunately. 

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5 hours ago, Old Man said:

 

It's okay, I'm fan enough for both of us.

 

I'd be more impressed if she had more ability to navigate the role and work within the caucus, as noted in the article. I see those as key job responsibilities for an elected official. She's okay though.

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4 hours ago, Old Man said:

Photos of the wreckage show dozens of unmistakable shrapnel holes. There is no question that the plane was shot down. 
 

Tehran -> Kyiv -> Canada appears to have been a popular route for Iranian-Canadians. Unfortunately. 

 

Please don't say, "unmistakable." At this point no authority actually familiar with weapon damage to aircraft has made that assertion publicly. Another photo claims to show a rocket nose cone found near the wreckage of the aircraft, again, not confirmed that it was a rocket, or that it actually was at the crash site. A Canadian intelligence official asserted that Western intelligence services believe it's "unlikely" a missile brought the aircraft down. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7863359/Ukrainian-passenger-plane-carrying-180-people-crashes-near-Tehran-local-media.html

 

That could all change when more evidence is in. It's not in yet.

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The airplane crash expert interviewed on All Things Considered yesterday would merely say that any simple "technical fault" was improbable as a cause of the crash. The most severe thing he could imagine was a complete engine failure that could damage a wing and even part of the fuselage, but even then the plane could make a controlled landing and the pilots would have time to radio for help. But he stressed that nothing could be positively known without a thorough investigation.

 

My sympathies to Canada, and to all the relatives of the people on the plane.

 

Dean Shomshak

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I was right. The End Times. :blink:

 

If anyone thought Tucker Carlson's ego was insufferable before this happened... :rolleyes:

 

But this tweet transcript from the linked website, from Matthew Gertz, is most salient to me: "Do you feel safe knowing that the only thing standing between the United States and another major war may be whether the president finds the most recent monologue from Tucker Carlson or Sean Hannity more compelling?"

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2 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

I was right. The End Times. :blink:

 

If anyone thought Tucker Carlson's ego was insufferable before this happened... :rolleyes:

 

But this tweet transcript from the linked website, from Matthew Gertz, is most salient to me: "Do you feel safe knowing that the only thing standing between the United States and another major war may be whether the president finds the most recent monologue from Tucker Carlson or Sean Hannity more compelling?"

Tucker has basically transformed into "Richard Spencer with a primetime Fox show".  

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On 1/8/2020 at 1:00 PM, Hermit said:

 

I do not agree with her on somethings, but I admire the hell out of her. A shame she's not yet 35 ,she'd make a hell of a VP nom for Bernie in that together they could terrify many..mwhahaha

 

 

 

 

Um, I think she only really terrifies blue dog Democrats.  Every Republican, conservative and most independents I know, hold her up as exactly why you should vote Republican.  

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Just now, Badger said:

 

 

Um, I think she only really terrifies blue dog Democrats.  Every Republican, conservative and most independents I know, hold her up as exactly why you should vote Republican.  

You-Make-Me-Sad-696x384.jpg

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On 1/8/2020 at 4:35 PM, death tribble said:

What if someone declares war on the Beverly Hillbillies ?

Or anyone who ever watched an episode ?

 

Just asking for a friend

 

That would be interesting. (and I have watched many of the episodes, though like the Andy Griffith Show, I only mostly like the black and white episodes)

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Just now, Badger said:

 

Sorry, don't kill the messenger. :(

 

I shall not not even taunt you viciously in an outrageous French accent!

 

You might even be right, which.. I suppose would make me...wro..wro...

less accurate than I am usually!

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Hermit said:

 

I shall not not even taunt you viciously in an outrageous French accent!

 

You might even be right, which.. I suppose would make me...wro..wro...

less accurate than I am usually!

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, well, cant say I am a fan of her, myself.  But, we'll see what becomes of her in the next few years.  

 

I do worry that the Democrats may be too focused on the issues of the more radical elements of the party, to the expense of the moderates of the party.   That usually hurts eventually.  (Buttigieg is the only that seems to be consistent of the frontrunners at relating to the moderate/independent.   While we can question the sincerity of it (definitely question it) Trump was successful at relating to the working class to where they did vote for him in 2016.  Those votes will ultimately need to be taken back by Democrats if they want to win. Those votes may have been taken for granted as automatic at times in the past by the Dems.

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On 1/7/2020 at 4:30 PM, DShomshak said:

Just heard a sound bite of Trump on the radio saying okay, he won't target cultural sites because it's illegal... but still delivered in a sneering way to make clear he thinks the law is stupid, and following any law is stupid. And still repeating the "They're allowed to..." nonsense.

 

I dare say Trump has no conception of why anyone thinks culture is important. Or the rule of law, for that matter.

 

 

dean Shomshak

 

He might catch a glimmer of understanding if all the buildings with his name on them actually became targets of retaliation. At least that would make it personal, which appears to be all he can relate to.

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3 hours ago, Badger said:

I do worry that the Democrats may be too focused on the issues of the more radical elements of the party, to the expense of the moderates of the party.   That usually hurts eventually.  (Buttigieg is the only that seems to be consistent of the frontrunners at relating to the moderate/independent.   While we can question the sincerity of it (definitely question it) Trump was successful at relating to the working class to where they did vote for him in 2016.  Those votes will ultimately need to be taken back by Democrats if they want to win. Those votes may have been taken for granted as automatic at times in the past by the Dems.

 

What radical elements? The ones that think that taxation should return to Eisenhower levels? The ones that think that cops should be penalized for bad behavior? That health care shouldn't be for-profit? That violent people shouldn't have access to guns? That corporations shouldn't be allowed to ruin the environment (or the economy) for their own profit? That the government should provide some sort of post-secondary education? That we fight in too many damn wars? That corporations get subsidized for doing what they would do anyway?  That government should help people that need help? That all US citizens should be allowed to vote?

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1 hour ago, IndianaJoe3 said:

 

What radical elements? The ones that think that taxation should return to Eisenhower levels? The ones that think that cops should be penalized for bad behavior? That health care shouldn't be for-profit? That violent people shouldn't have access to guns? That corporations shouldn't be allowed to ruin the environment (or the economy) for their own profit? That the government should provide some sort of post-secondary education? That we fight in too many damn wars? That corporations get subsidized for doing what they would do anyway?  That government should help people that need help? That all US citizens should be allowed to vote?

 

What are you, some kinda hippie commie punk?  :winkgrin:

 

(Since tone of voice doesn't always come across well on the internet, I am just joking.)

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1 hour ago, IndianaJoe3 said:

What radical elements? The ones that think that taxation should return to Eisenhower levels? The ones that think that cops should be penalized for bad behavior? That health care shouldn't be for-profit? That violent people shouldn't have access to guns? That corporations shouldn't be allowed to ruin the environment (or the economy) for their own profit? That the government should provide some sort of post-secondary education? That we fight in too many damn wars? That corporations get subsidized for doing what they would do anyway?  That government should help people that need help? That all US citizens should be allowed to vote?

 

These three points, at least, could certainly be viewed as 'radical' based on how different they are from how things have traditionally worked in America. And a fourth (ruining the environment) will likely be viewed as nanny-state ideology.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong about any of this. But I don't think you can assume that the rightness of these issues is self-evident to all American voters.

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1 hour ago, Pariah said:

 

These three points, at least, could certainly be viewed as 'radical' based on how different they are from how things have traditionally worked in America. And a fourth (ruining the environment) will likely be viewed as nanny-state ideology.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong about any of this. But I don't think you can assume that the rightness of these issues is self-evident to all American voters.

 

They all poll pretty well among American voters, less so with political pundits.

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I have doubts that playing it safe, trying to appeal to moderate viewpoints, is the way to win the next presidential election. Donald Trump presented a vision of America that, as wrong-headed as I believe it is, was bold and in some ways radical, but it resonated with enough voters to put him in the White House. What I hear and read from Americans generally is that the they feel the country, and the world, are at a political, social, environmental tipping point. Bold choices need to be made, and I suspect Americans are in the mood for decisive leadership. IMO the Democrats need to present an alternative vision of America to Trump's, one that emphasizes hope and compassion to counter his message of fear and hatred.

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I think you're right. Countering Trump's vision with "let's go back to the way things were before Trump" is a losing strategy, IMO. There needs to be a coherent, easily understandable vision presented by the candidate, and it needs to address the issues people care about in a way that isn't just more of the same old, same old.

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14 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

IMO the Democrats need to present an alternative vision of America to Trump's, one that emphasizes hope and compassion to counter his message of fear and hatred.

 

Fear sells. The best we can hope of is that the fear being sold is of something that's reasonable and not racist and xenophobic. Fear of the environment being destroyed, and fear of climate change being two I'd put in that category, but drumming up fear of people has a lot more immediacy, unfortunately.

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IMHO you would then be playing Trump's game, on his battlefield. He understands that, he's good at it, and he's built years of momentum with it. That's a losing strategy. The Dem candidate has to change the game, and make Trump play on that field.

 

Kennedy sold optimism and compassion. Eisenhower sold it. Franklin Roosevelt sold it. Don't underestimate the power of positive thinking to motivate voters.

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