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Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)


Simon

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2 hours ago, Cancer said:

 

The example of China carries certain cultural factors that need to be kept in mind when assessing the causes for their failure to identify and contain this virus -- it isn't purely incompetence and selfishness. Chinese society, like those of several other Oriental peoples, places great weight on "face," the reputation and respect that others hold you in. It's a loss of face to admit mistake or failure, or to appear weak or ineffective. Even allowing criticism to stand unchallenged would mean losing face. Another factor is the Chinese prioritization of order and stability. China hasn't mythologized freedom and independence as America has. They view the periods of upheaval in their history as times of chaos and suffering; order brings peace and prosperity. And even though it's no longer given official credence or openly discussed, the venerable Chinese concept of "the mandate of Heaven" still threads its way through their thinking: that governments rule by divine appointment so long as they govern well, but if they start to falter too much it's a sign that Heaven's mandate has been withdrawn.

 

All that said, having an autocratic government like China's can only exacerbate those factors. Dictatorships in general are afraid of criticism or dissent, because if it spreads it can undermine their image of power and control. Chinese culture may make their government even more paranoid over it. Moreover, the current Chinese president, Xi Jinping, has been assiduously building a cult of personality around himself. Whether or not that makes him personally more sensitive toward dissent, the rest of Chinese society is afraid of his wrath should they do or say something that would embarrass him. All that prompts them to clamp down reflexively on anything that doesn't toe the party line, even if its intent is apolitical and beneficial.

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40 minutes ago, TrickstaPriest said:

I wholly agree with this and has been part of my world view for a long, long time.  These saving-the-face games in the face of real trouble are not only barbaric, but they are the hallmark of both incompetence and weakness.  It's what people do when they literally don't know how to act to resolve a serious situation and are trying to CYA by burning their own raft.  It's also the fingerprint of any autocratic regime - it's why most 'experts' and skilled individuals gradually leave the country, it's why their leadership can make disastrous decisions that tank entire industries, and it's why their military struggles with internal conflicts.

 

I don't disagree with you, TP; but as I tried to illustrate in my previous post, every society holds certain values that they consider self-evidently right and good, woven into the fabric of their interactions to the point that they don't even recognize them as not universally held. Following those isn't necessarily incompetence or weakness, although it certainly often is, as a factor if not the primary motivator.

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23 minutes ago, Hermit said:

Another factor in play is the Supreme Court which has agreed to try another case on the Affordable Care Act. If they nuke Obama care any time before the election, it could have have profound consequences ON said election. Biden wants to keep Obamacare and improve it. But if there's nothing to keep, if it's undone before he can take office, what move is going to make? If that happens, I can certainly see progressives pushing him with "Can we try Universal Health Care NOW, maybe pretty please?"

 

Only the pretty please might be sarcastic

 

If it happens before Biden gets the nom, it might fuel Bernie as few things can.

 

Now you make me wonder about the political agendas of the justices in SCOTUS. The Court are normally wary of making any rulings whose timing could directly impact the electoral process, so I'd be surprised if they handed one down on this before November; but I don't know if enough of the current Court are sufficiently dogmatic, or partisan, to want to intervene in that way. :think:

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1 hour ago, Hermit said:

 

Another factor in play is the Supreme Court which has agreed to try another case on the Affordable Care Act. If they nuke Obama care any time before the election, it could have have profound consequences ON said election. Biden wants to keep Obamacare and improve it. But if there's nothing to keep, if it's undone before he can take office, what move is he going to make? If that happens, I can certainly see progressives pushing him with "Can we try Universal Health Care NOW, maybe pretty please?"

 

Only the pretty please might be sarcastic

 

If it happens before Biden gets the nom, it might fuel Bernie as few things can.

 

 

well, Chief Roberts has been loathe to fool with the status quo of health care, so Obamacare will get his vote at least.  So, that probably will be enough.

 

Note: Might be best for Obamacare, if it taken care of now.  Ginzburg most certainly wont make it through next term.

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hmm, thinking about it.  It might prove something interesting.

 

Republicans might be the ones who actually want to away with the status quo.  They backed the wrong candidate in that with Trump.  But, they tried.

 

The Democrat Party, might be the one most desperate to cling on to it.  Whether their voters feel likewise or not.  They are wholeheartedly clinging to Biden, just so they don't have to deal with it.

 

Note: Republican voters.  I think the Republican politicians liked the status quo pre-2016.  I think they were completely happy to howl about Obama, without actually having to take responsibility for anything.  

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39 minutes ago, Badger said:

The Democrat Party, might be the one most desperate to cling on to it.  Whether their voters feel likewise or not.  They are wholeheartedly clinging to Biden, just so they don't have to deal with it.

 

I run into a fair few that rationalize supporting Biden as giving the best chance to push out Trump.  But they haven't talked much about policy, and unfortunately what they have has been complaints about details on Sanders' policies that sound... ill informed.

 

I mean, whether they are right about those details or not, propaganda works.  I think I did mention that Australia went from a country that was overwhelmingly concerned about climate change in the early 2000s to one that only has about a third of the country concerned about it.  Possibly due to all the money the government spent there on attacking it.

 

edit:  to clarify, you can produce propaganda about an idea that's true (or mostly true).  It works, and it moves societies.

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Sorry, but from my POV, NOTHING matters more than beating Trump.  I am an unaffiliated moderate and whoever has the best chance to do that will get my vote.  Right now, with Trump as President,  the country is a giant dam about to burst.  Can we please make sure the hole is plugged before anything?  After that, everything else is icing on the cake.  As I've said before, I don't think Bernie beats Trump.

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31 minutes ago, Starlord said:

Sorry, but from my POV, NOTHING matters more than beating Trump.  I am an unaffiliated moderate and whoever has the best chance to do that will get my vote.  Right now, with Trump as President,  the country is a giant dam about to burst.  Can we please make sure the hole is plugged before anything?  After that, everything else is icing on the cake.  As I've said before, I don't think Bernie beats Trump.

 

Yeah.  Sorry about my comments.  I do disagree, but not on the urgency.  I just don't see either party advancing critical environmental, healthcare, and surveillance concerns at all.

 

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55 minutes ago, Pariah said:

100% agreed. I fear for the future of this nation if we get another four years of this guy and his groupies.

 

The more I think about this, the more I fear - if he loses - he will immediately go to radio shows and video apps and spend years talking about stolen elections and more-or-less all of his more dangerous rhetoric.  Doing what he's been doing as President, but on his preferred 'channels'.  Which he may do anyway if he wins, just four years later.  I don't know if 'his people' have truly seen how much he is running the country into the ground yet (in my opinion). 

 

Do I want him to win?  No, definitely not.

 

I just don't think he'll leave quietly if he loses.

 

But maybe I am just feeling like there's no good future for any of us anymore.

 

😕

 

edit:  I'ma eat some ice cream.

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I'm afraid I must respectfully but emphatically disagree with the sentiment of, "Anyone but Trump." Donald Trump is not the disease. He's a symptom. The system running America today created President Trump -- its dysfunction, its partisanship, its elitism. The failure in leadership made Trump look like a viable alternative to many people. Major factions in government, in media, have protected and enabled him because it was in their selfish interest. Trump couldn't have exploited the divisions, the fears and hatreds, in American society if they weren't already seething under the surface.

 

All of that won't go away with Donald Trump. The system itself is in desperate need of revision. If effort isn't made from the top on down to change direction, to chart a new course, there will be another Trump. Maybe a more competent, and therefore more dangerous Trump.

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Pursuant to the above, I'd like to remind people of Boris Yeltsin. A populist politician and a key figure in the formal dissolution of the Soviet Union, Yeltsin became the first President of the independent Russian Federation. He strove to rapidly transform the socialist economy of his country to a capitalist one, inducing market collapse, and resultant political upheaval which he used force to try to suppress. On the world stage he was frequently mocked for his boorish, impulsive behavior, reputedly fueled by alcohol. He was finally pushed to resign, but left many Russians longing for strong decisive leadership, which they got from Yeltsin's chosen successor -- Vladimir Putin.

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Feb. 29, 2020 issue of The Economist has the cover headline, "American Nightmare" with a cartoon of giant Sanders and Trump -- looking very Tweedledum and Tweedledee -- bellowing identically at an Uncle Sam cowering in bed with a pillow over his head. Their headline editorial lays out their argument that Sanders would be nearly as disastrous a choice as Trump. I'd link it, but their website doesn't seem to show that issue. Suffice to say they raise some issues I haven't heard answered before -- and that he is "not a cuddly Scandinavian social democrat."

 

Dean Shomshak

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50 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

He was finally pushed to resign, but left many Russians longing for strong decisive leadership, which they got from Yeltsin's chosen successor -- Vladimir Putin.

 

Yeah.  It's this that concerns me.  The entire attitude of the country has shifted to 'anything goes, give me mine'.  Trump is well up there.  But the aftereffects of this are going to be very, very bad.

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1 hour ago, DShomshak said:

Feb. 29, 2020 issue of The Economist has the cover headline, "American Nightmare" with a cartoon of giant Sanders and Trump -- looking very Tweedledum and Tweedledee -- bellowing identically at an Uncle Sam cowering in bed with a pillow over his head. Their headline editorial lays out their argument that Sanders would be nearly as disastrous a choice as Trump. I'd link it, but their website doesn't seem to show that issue. Suffice to say they raise some issues I haven't heard answered before -- and that he is "not a cuddly Scandinavian social democrat."

 

The Economist is pretty far over to the right economically, so that perspective doesn't surprise me.

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1 hour ago, DShomshak said:

Feb. 29, 2020 issue of The Economist has the cover headline, "American Nightmare" with a cartoon of giant Sanders and Trump -- looking very Tweedledum and Tweedledee -- bellowing identically at an Uncle Sam cowering in bed with a pillow over his head. Their headline editorial lays out their argument that Sanders would be nearly as disastrous a choice as Trump. I'd link it, but their website doesn't seem to show that issue. Suffice to say they raise some issues I haven't heard answered before -- and that he is "not a cuddly Scandinavian social democrat."

 

Dean Shomshak

 

That article is up now, although you have to register with The Economist to read the whole thing: https://www.economist.com/leaders/2020/02/27/bernie-sanders-nominee . I did so.

 

I am instinctively suspicious of an editorialist who makes broad, sweeping statements without quotations or citations to back them up. I'm not responsive to someone using the words and tone of righteousness to accuse someone else of being righteous. I'm fed up with assertions that substantive reforms will cripple the economy -- it's an old and tired argument. If we bought that we'd all still be breathing smog and drinking sewer water. And of course legislation to change social standards will be hard to get passed, but that's not enough reason not to put in the work to try. Do they think desegregation in America just fell from the sky?

 

At least the author of the article stated up-front that his magazine didn't agree with Sanders' "socialist" policies. Not that I would have needed the warning to perceive where his bias lies. :rolleyes:

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3 hours ago, Starlord said:

I don't think Bernie beats Trump.

 

Piketty's paper shows that historically, moderates perform poorly compared to leftist candidates.  The truth is that the whole left-right axis is an oversimplification.  There is no "mushy middle" and undecided voters are as common as chicken teeth.  According to the evidence, moderate left candidates that fail to turn out the working class vote lose elections.  Maybe Biden can do it, but since he literally said he was open to choosing a Republican running mate, I'm not holding my breath.  It's more likely that he'll campaign as a boring centrist that to many Democratic voters will be close enough to a Republican as makes no difference, and they'll stay home.

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7 hours ago, TrickstaPriest said:

 

I run into a fair few that rationalize supporting Biden as giving the best chance to push out Trump.  But they haven't talked much about policy, and unfortunately what they have has been complaints about details on Sanders' policies that sound... ill informed.

 

I mean, whether they are right about those details or not, propaganda works.  I think I did mention that Australia went from a country that was overwhelmingly concerned about climate change in the early 2000s to one that only has about a third of the country concerned about it.  Possibly due to all the money the government spent there on attacking it.

 

edit:  to clarify, you can produce propaganda about an idea that's true (or mostly true).  It works, and it moves societies.

 

Do understand, not necessarily talking about the Dem voters, more the party itself.

 

I do think winning the House in 2018 was the worst thing that could happen to the party.  It lead them to believe that being just anti-Trump works and is all they needed.  Rather than looking in the mirror, which a good trouncing would have forced upon them.  Unfortunately, this will be needed in 2020.  I hope the party can then honestly look at itself and do that.

 

To be sure, the Republican party needs that moment too,  but it'll likely have to wait till 2024.

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8 hours ago, Old Man said:

 

Piketty's paper shows that historically, moderates perform poorly compared to leftist candidates.  The truth is that the whole left-right axis is an oversimplification.  There is no "mushy middle" and undecided voters are as common as chicken teeth.  According to the evidence, moderate left candidates that fail to turn out the working class vote lose elections.  Maybe Biden can do it, but since he literally said he was open to choosing a Republican running mate, I'm not holding my breath.  It's more likely that he'll campaign as a boring centrist that to many Democratic voters will be close enough to a Republican as makes no difference, and they'll stay home.

 

Except there is no historically accurate playbook for beating Trump, history doesn't apply to him.  No one saw him coming and standard thinking won't defeat him.  EVERYONE has been wrong about what will work against him and when he will slip up.

 

PS:  I don't think Biden will win either, but I think he'll do better than a guy who seems be hated by, or scares away, half his own party

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4 hours ago, Badger said:

 

Do understand, not necessarily talking about the Dem voters, more the party itself.

 

I do think winning the House in 2018 was the worst thing that could happen to the party.  It lead them to believe that being just anti-Trump works and is all they needed.  Rather than looking in the mirror, which a good trouncing would have forced upon them.  Unfortunately, this will be needed in 2020.  I hope the party can then honestly look at itself and do that.

 

See, I think Bernie Sanders is proof that they actually did take a good look in the mirror...aaaand then got scared and decided Hillary was nice and safe.

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18 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

The fat lady hasn't sung yet, Doc. The caucuses are just the first stage. Next comes the convention, and then the election. Not until that's over will we know what America, as a whole, really wants.

 

Personally I would like the Democratic candidate to be Sanders, not just because I like his stated policies, but because he's articulated a clear vision of where he wants to lead his country, one diametrically opposed to Trump's. That would give Americans a meaningful choice, not just for President, but for what they want their country to stand for going forward.

Sanders' failure so far to put together a broader, winning coalition within the Democratic party is a "sneak preview" of the problems he would have doing so in a general election.  My politics are pretty leftward, but I recognize the importance of coalition-building.  

Given how the incumbent is running the country, even a challenger running as a moderate Republican(which Biden is not doing) would be offering the country a meaningful alternative.  

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Americans supposedly want change, but Bernie is unelectable because he's too "radical"(i.e wants too much change). But "no change" Biden is suddenly everyone's savior? I really just don't get this country sometimes. Of course, part of this is that the people really no longer have any effective say in what goes on...so it's no wonder nothing ever gets done. The world's most powerful economy can't provide education, medical care, and decent living standards for its populace? This can only go on for so long before something gives. As I've said, there's a lot of similarities between America now and France and Russia before their respective revolutions. The common thread being the government not giving a crap about what the people want. Our government had so far gotten away with it due to public apathy, but that won't last forever.

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