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Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)


Simon

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I am astounded with what is happening in the USA for the past week. 

 

Growing up in the 1970's I looked at the US with envious eyes.  It had all of the things that I admired and wanted.  It was shining beacon of hope and optimism (even amidst the whole vietnam thing).  America was the bastion of the free west and Russia was an omni-present threat.  Obviously I was growing up in a white privileged world where I was oblivious to why the Cold War was not cold and many people (not white) were dying all over the Southern Hemisphere.

 

Still - modern, wealthy, optimistic with access to all of the good things in life.  People there seemed to get on with life better, produce better things and better tv programmes.  The US also seemed to have a better outlook on life and to be aiming higher when the UK was aiming and failing just to stay the same.  America in the late 70s seemed to be heading for the stars while we were sinking into potential for urban decay and uprising.  Obviously I was growing up in Scotland during the Thatcher years where immediate relative poverty was omnipresent and there was nothing new or shiny in my life. I could only dream of growing up to move to move to America where my cousins in Long Island seemed to live an idyllic life.

 

Over the years it is amazing how that changed.  I still admired the core American Dream - I even came over and worked and lived in the US for a few years but my life, my awareness and my priorities were changing.  I came back from the US because, after growing up within the security of a national health service, America seemed a dangerous place to be sick and too many people seemed to get caught in the financial nets of the health insurance people.  I also watched as the number of school shootings became more and more commonplace until they were not worthy of top billing on news programmes and did not think I wanted to send my children to school in place where they were in danger of being shot.

 

Even after all that I still saw America as a much better place to be, it was just my lack of robustness that led me to want to stick to the health safety of the UK. 

 

Now, as I watch the videos rolling out of the US every day with a sick fascination I am beginning to think that I was lucky not to have stayed.  People getting huge bills for getting sick during a pandemic, police on the streets seemingly relishing spraying people with pepper spray and groups beating individuals with batons.  I look at a population no longer scared of being killed by the police but accepting that this is the risk they live with every day and they might as well face it while shouting that it is not right than hoping it happens to someone else with the same colour of skin as they have. 

 

My experience of prejudice is anti-Irish, anti-catholic prejudice in the UK in the 70's and 80's.  That lead to bombs and underground armies.  I then look at the proliferation of weapons in the US and while the looting is bad, I cannot help but wonder how long it will be before a small group of people so sick of the disparity between armed police and unarmed protestors decide to switch it around.  How many men with automatic weapons would it take to cause an atrocity?  What would happen then?  Are there enough cool heads to stop police and armed forces going out and killing many more?  Enough to stop white folks going out with their own guns and killing more?? 

 

It really scares me.  It is the first time in my 55 years on this planet where I would absolutely prefer to be in the UK than in the US (and that is in the context of Boris and Brexit which makes it even more poignant for me).

 

I hope this current issue fades away but I do not see any hope that the underlying causes will be addressed and that the deployment of men with guns only deals with the immediate symptoms and that the next time, or the one after because there will be more, will be the one where the country goes up in flames.

 

I mourn for the American Dream I admired so much when I was young...I miss it and I think the world does too  😞

 

Doc

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If there is any signs of hope, it's that in many cities the protests have stayed peaceful on both sides. And that some military leaders are censuring Trump's bluster about using soldiers against protesters/rioters -- the ones still serving are carefully measured in their reminders that they took oath to defend the Constitution, not the mad whims of whoever's in the Oval Office, but they are still saying it. It seems they do not want to be actively complicit in the slide to autocracy.

 

It is a small point of light in a dark time, but I'll take it and hope it grows. Despots need to be sure that soldiers will fire upon their own people when ordered, and some of the people tasked with transmitting those orders are saying there are orders they will not obey.

 

Moreover, the recent statements from bishops and former general Mattis have held contempt as well as outrage. As Machiavelli warned, a ruler can survive hatred, but contempt is far more dangerous.

 

Dean Shomshak

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If there is any signs of hope, it's that in many cities the protests have stayed peaceful on both sides. And that some military leaders are censuring Trump's bluster about using soldiers against protesters/rioters -- the ones still serving are carefully measured in their reminders that they took oath to defend the Constitution, not the mad whims of whoever's in the Oval Office, but they are still saying it. It seems they do not want to be actively complicit in the slide to autocracy.

 

It is a small point of light in a dark time, but I'll take it and hope it grows. Despots need to be sure that soldiers will fire upon their own people when ordered, and some of the people tasked with transmitting those orders are saying there are orders they will not obey.

 

Moreover, the recent statements from bishops and former general Mattis have held contempt as well as outrage. As Machiavelli warned, a ruler can survive hatred, but contempt is far more dangerous.

 

Dean Shomshak

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13 hours ago, TrickstaPriest said:

 

 "This account owner limits who can view their Tweets. Learn more" and I am not in the lucky group to be allowed.  A synopsis please?  Right Winger conspiracy stuff, Racist-the-world-is-ending-if-the (insert group here) get-respected?  Similar Left wing schemes?

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43 minutes ago, eyocum said:

 

 "This account owner limits who can view their Tweets. Learn more" and I am not in the lucky group to be allowed.  A synopsis please?  Right Winger conspiracy stuff, Racist-the-world-is-ending-if-the (insert group here) get-respected?  Similar Left wing schemes?

 

Huh.  Nope, that changed overnight.  I'll have to find another link.

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Keep in mind it's well within the power of the police to simply blockade a neighborhood, a township, a city, and provide no aid and prevent any aid to come.  They don't even need to start a disaster, but they can, such as with the MOVE bombing.  They are completely capable of destroying entire neighborhoods and there isn't a single thing anyone can do to stop them.

 

It won't surprise me if (the authorities, be they police, NG, or other) essentially engineer to make entire neighborhoods collapse in cities that don't "cooperate" enough with their efforts.  I fully understand rioters can be a dangerous force even to well armed police, but they have a power that not even the army is allowed to possess in this country, and you are going to see it exercised again and again. 

 

That's why I've ranted that protest is dead.

 

That's also why this has gone beyond protest in some places - in some locations it's full blown riots.  I don't like it, but I at least understand why this is going so far.  But there are plenty of protests beyond the rioting... I just understand how people get pushed this far.

 

I still think looters should face arrest.

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The Best Buy at the mall 15 miles from me was broken into using construction equipment. There was gunfire and the looting expanded into surrounding neighborhoods. Police response predictably escalated. Then a helicopter went down and took out the power to 23k people for a day.

 

Sigh. I'm glad I took this week off. This is looking like yet another set of bad choices. I am not sure what we're even supposed to do that's a winning strategy locally. Law Enforcement will enforce the laws, that's inevitable and actually appropriate. And the training is "overwhelming force" if needed and go home to your family at the end of the day. I understand that perspective as well. This isn't going to go well. 

 

I retreated to nature and am camping with my kiddo. I'll be back next week, but this isn't my issue for another 4 days. I can't even.

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33 minutes ago, Iuz the Evil said:

I retreated to nature and am camping with my kiddo. I'll be back next week, but this isn't my issue for another 4 days. I can't even.

 

I wish you the best.

 

 

It does sound like the crash is unrelated to the protest and riots, but I do agree (in that police are necessary for this situation).  But as you say, there's no "winning" in this.

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11 hours ago, DShomshak said:

If there is any signs of hope, it's that in many cities the protests have stayed peaceful on both sides. And that some military leaders are censuring Trump's bluster about using soldiers against protesters/rioters -- the ones still serving are carefully measured in their reminders that they took oath to defend the Constitution, not the mad whims of whoever's in the Oval Office, but they are still saying it. It seems they do not want to be actively complicit in the slide to autocracy.

 

It is a small point of light in a dark time, but I'll take it and hope it grows. Despots need to be sure that soldiers will fire upon their own people when ordered, and some of the people tasked with transmitting those orders are saying there are orders they will not obey.

 

Moreover, the recent statements from bishops and former general Mattis have held contempt as well as outrage. As Machiavelli warned, a ruler can survive hatred, but contempt is far more dangerous.

 

Dean Shomshak

I am usually on the protestors side* up until the rioting happens. I am. Hoping we learned from the past on that.

 

I worry with riots that the only winners are the racists.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Badger said:

To be fair, liberals pulled the vice versa from the looks of it.

 

I do wonder if we will get a sharp rise in Corona in those areas as June ends

 

I mean, I did just say that there is going to be more corona because of this.  Because human beings can't manage themselves.

 

But this wouldn't have happened to this degree without coronavirus.  Unemployment is a hell of a motivator to have the time and energy to get out and scream at your government.

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On 6/5/2020 at 1:55 PM, TrickstaPriest said:

It won't surprise me if (the authorities, be they police, NG, or other) essentially engineer to make entire neighborhoods collapse in cities that don't "cooperate" enough with their efforts.  I fully understand rioters can be a dangerous force even to well armed police, but they have a power that not even the army is allowed to possess in this country, and you are going to see it exercised again and again. 

 

That's why I've ranted that protest is dead.

 

 

I guess I should predicate/elaborate - I don't think such event is likely at any particular city, but it certainly has happened and will happen again.  The explosion of instigators, looting, is almost certainly pushing things far enough to have this kind of circumstance happen in one of the worst cities that this is taking place in.

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17 hours ago, TrickstaPriest said:

 

I mean, I did just say that there is going to be more corona because of this.  Because human beings can't manage themselves.

 

But this wouldn't have happened to this degree without coronavirus.  Unemployment is a hell of a motivator to have the time and energy to get out and scream at your government.

Sorry, one bad thing about internet on phone is easy to miss a thing or 2.

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3 hours ago, Badger said:
20 hours ago, TrickstaPriest said:

 

I mean, I did just say that there is going to be more corona because of this.  Because human beings can't manage themselves.

 

But this wouldn't have happened to this degree without coronavirus.  Unemployment is a hell of a motivator to have the time and energy to get out and scream at your government.

Sorry, one bad thing about internet on phone is easy to miss a thing or 2.

 

LOL.  I'm the one who should be sorry - my tone is meant to be grave, not... attacking.  I'm not pointing out you missed something, I'm saying... "yeah, I agree, this is fxxked".

 

But while I hear a lot of people say "well politicians are stirring the pot cause it's election year" or "antifa's got to be the one instigating this", I have to rely on what kind of direct information I can on such matters.  And a lot of the information I'm interested in has to do with tactics, governance, information.

 

In terms of why people are going out, despite coronavirus...

 

I do know that a lot of people I've known for a long time have wanted to protest certain issues for ages, but could never have the time due to exhaustion from overwork... and right now, the only thing that's keeping those people indoors are if they have serious health issues.

 

But even those not motivated are finding themselves outside because of being helpless and trapped... and I worry that those are the ones that don't give a damn what they do.

 

So in my interpretation, these protests are so massive only because of unemployment (caused by coronavirus).  That very well could be driving the latter behavior.

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