Lord Liaden Posted July 14, 2020 Report Share Posted July 14, 2020 But any conflicts over an issue are supposed to be resolved by all involved parties casting their votes, and respecting the decision of the majority (or whatever supermajority or other balancing mechanism has been established). That second part is what's so often lost in the current partisan strife. Democracy is supposed to be a cooperative, consensual form of government, in which the people or their representatives develop a compromise position which the majority can support; not where one party driven in lock-step uses a majority to browbeat or punish another party. That's what we're seeing in America today, but for the majority of my lifetime that's not how it was done. Matt the Bruins, Ragitsu, Grailknight and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 7 hours ago, Lord Liaden said: It saddens me to think that may be a widespread belief. Life itself is conflict. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pariah Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 Life is pain. Anyone who says differently is selling something. And in politics, everyone is selling something. Sociotard 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L. Marcus Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 Ideally, pain relievers. Sociotard 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottishFox Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 15 hours ago, Lord Liaden said: Democracy is supposed to be a cooperative, consensual form of government, in which the people or their representatives develop a compromise position which the majority can support; not where one party driven in lock-step uses a majority to browbeat or punish another party. That's what we're seeing in America today, but for the majority of my lifetime that's not how it was done. Very well said. The strain between the compassionate and competitive is very necessary. Both sides have critically important points to make and the conversation and compromise have to continue. Without that we'll rapidly drift towards violence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 9 hours ago, Badger said: Life itself is conflict. 8 hours ago, Pariah said: Life is pain. Anyone who says differently is selling something. And in politics, everyone is selling something. See, those kinds of sweeping generalizations are what lead to fatalism and despair that's self-defeating and paralyzing. If life is nothing but conflict, how are we ever supposed to achieve peace? If life is only pain, what's the point of ever trying to be happy? All of those things exist in life, and in their contrast they serve a purpose. Conflict makes us cherish peace. Happiness gives us the hope and motivation to overcome pain. Those generalizations can also lead us to treat life as though it was the "reality show" Survivor, an artificial construct in which participants are rewarded for deceit and treachery. In real survival situations everyone has to work together, or no one survives. Our current pandemic has made that clearer than ever. Grailknight, Matt the Bruins, Pariah and 3 others 2 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 I prefer hope for the best, plan for the worst. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DShomshak Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 I've seen a distinction made between democratic politics and despotic politics. Either way, the fundamental question is, "Who gets their way?" In democratic politics, factions seek victories on particular issues but don't try to win completely on everything and forever. In despotic politics, factions seek permanent supremacy and the destruction of rivals. (Their political destruction, at least -- a permanent irrelevance.) Thing is, it looks to me like Republicans/conservatives already chose despotic politics. Completely. Voter suppression, ultra-gerrymandering, refusing even to take a vote on Merrick Garland -- those aren't tactics to persuade or to gather a stronger coalition, those are tactics to lock out the other side. Perhaps many conservatives genuinely believe this is all righteous defense against liberals flouting the law. That doesn't make it true. And if they can't come up with any Democratic offenses worse than Hillary's emails, I am not inclined to believe their claim. OTOH, conservatives have clearly lost on various cultural issues dear to their heart, such as opposition to same-sex marriage, where the Left won by impeccably lawful means. So it looks to me like the Left can get what it wants democratically or judicially, and the Right knows it must go despotic or lose completely. So, should liberals accept the new reality and embrace despotic politics as the alternative to being crushed? That depends on how far Trump goes this fall, and how far other Republicans are willing to go along. I don't think we are at the point of supreme emergency yet, though I can see it on the horizon. If Trump loses fairly and goes -- screaming, no doubt, but goes -- I'd prefer to let most investigations drop or at least be done quietly, with the aim of preventing future mischief. Still, I hope someone points out to Trump -- and forces him to listen, as best they can -- that if he can get away with a criminal presidency and then pardon himself, a Biden presidency could say, "Screw the pardon: We're nailing Trump to the wall." Break whatever laws are necessary, then pardon itself for doing so. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Dean Shomshak TrickstaPriest, L. Marcus, Ragitsu and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DShomshak Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 Incidentally, I am amused by Trump's outrage that Gorsuch and Kavanaugh have not shown consistent and obedient fealty. His own world-view should have told him this: He gave them something that he can't take back, and he has nothing else that they want. Therefore he has no leverage. They don't need him anymore. So why should they give a rat's ass what he wants? Dean Shomshak TrickstaPriest, Pariah, Twilight and 4 others 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 Trump always insists on personal loyalty to himself from his underlings, or everyone he categorizes as an underling. This is consistent behavior for someone who is treacherous himself, and therefore always fears treachery from others. There's also probably an element of mob-boss mentality, in which Trump sees himself as bestowing "favors," and therefore expects reciprocity. At bottom though, I don't think what most upsets him is that Gorsuch and Kavanaugh did this. It's that they dared do this to HIM! The center of the universe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottishFox Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 3 hours ago, DShomshak said: Perhaps many conservatives genuinely believe this is all righteous defense against liberals flouting the law. That doesn't make it true. And if they can't come up with any Democratic offenses worse than Hillary's emails, I am not inclined to believe their claim. I'm not conservative, but my conservative friends are much more worked up about what they see as a completely illegal investigation of a political opponent by having the Obama FBI investigating then candidate Trump. Regardless if you believe that has any merit or not - that is a major grief point among conservatives. Using intelligence agencies to undermine or outright remove political opponents before they're even in office would certainly fall in the despotic side of this conversation. Again, not saying I believe that's what happened, but I'm in Texas and my conservative friends are all over it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 There might have been a basis for that if the fact an investigation into possible ties between the Russian government and Trump campaign officials was being conducted had been made public prior to the election. The FBI launched their investigation in July of 2016, after receiving intelligence suggestive of that situation, and not at the instruction of either Obama or Clinton. It wasn't until January of 2017 that the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence announced they were investigating deliberate intervention in the election by Russia. https://www.cnn.com/2017/10/12/us/2016-presidential-election-investigation-fast-facts/index.html If they were going to undermine Trump, they had plenty of time to do so before ballots were cast. 1 hour ago, ScottishFox said: Using intelligence agencies to undermine or outright remove political opponents before they're even in office would certainly fall in the despotic side of this conversation. *Cough*Ukraine*cough* BoloOfEarth 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranxerox Posted July 16, 2020 Report Share Posted July 16, 2020 Trump's Enthusiasm Gap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted July 16, 2020 Report Share Posted July 16, 2020 13 hours ago, Lord Liaden said: See, those kinds of sweeping generalizations are what lead to fatalism and despair that's self-defeating and paralyzing. If life is nothing but conflict, how are we ever supposed to achieve peace? If life is only pain, what's the point of ever trying to be happy? All of those things exist in life, and in their contrast they serve a purpose. Conflict makes us cherish peace. Happiness gives us the hope and motivation to overcome pain. Those generalizations can also lead us to treat life as though it was the "reality show" Survivor, an artificial construct in which participants are rewarded for deceit and treachery. In real survival situations everyone has to work together, or no one survives. Our current pandemic has made that clearer than ever. Might be overthinking. Life isn't perfect. Every adversity you overcome, is a battle you won. Conflict is essentially just adversity. Not sure about the Survivor thing. Might look at it more as war consist of units working together for victory, if you worry about a need to bring together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoloOfEarth Posted July 16, 2020 Report Share Posted July 16, 2020 On 7/15/2020 at 12:08 AM, Badger said: Life itself is conflict. On 7/15/2020 at 1:04 AM, Pariah said: Life is pain. Anyone who says differently is selling something. And in politics, everyone is selling something. On 7/15/2020 at 9:57 AM, Lord Liaden said: See, those kinds of sweeping generalizations are what lead to fatalism and despair that's self-defeating and paralyzing. If life is nothing but conflict, how are we ever supposed to achieve peace? If life is only pain, what's the point of ever trying to be happy? All of those things exist in life, and in their contrast they serve a purpose. Conflict makes us cherish peace. Happiness gives us the hope and motivation to overcome pain. I can't speak to Badger's statement, but the first line of Pariah's is essentially a direct quote from Princess Bride (he just dropped the word "princess"), so I took that mostly tongue-in-cheek. Perhaps you already knew, LL, but it seemed like you were taking it completely seriously, so I wondered if maybe you didn't realize. Lord Liaden 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottishFox Posted July 16, 2020 Report Share Posted July 16, 2020 18 hours ago, Lord Liaden said: There might have been a basis for that if the fact an investigation into possible ties between the Russian government and Trump campaign officials was being conducted had been made public prior to the election. The FBI launched their investigation in July of 2016, after receiving intelligence suggestive of that situation, and not at the instruction of either Obama or Clinton. It wasn't until January of 2017 that the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence announced they were investigating deliberate intervention in the election by Russia. https://www.cnn.com/2017/10/12/us/2016-presidential-election-investigation-fast-facts/index.html If they were going to undermine Trump, they had plenty of time to do so before ballots were cast. *Cough*Ukraine*cough* You're not wrong, but its easy to see how a conservative would perceive that as tit for tat. You investigated me so now I'm investigating you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sociotard Posted July 16, 2020 Report Share Posted July 16, 2020 Does anybody else feel like its easy to lose track of the plot on this season? Very nearly Dadaist. And I'm pretty sure these all went in the trash after the shoot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 To quote Mr. Spock from ST Season One, "The Alternative Factor": Jim, madness has no purpose, or reason, but it may have a goal. He must be stopped, held, destroyed if necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 10 hours ago, BoloOfEarth said: I can't speak to Badger's statement, but the first line of Pariah's is essentially a direct quote from Princess Bride (he just dropped the word "princess"), so I took that mostly tongue-in-cheek. Perhaps you already knew, LL, but it seemed like you were taking it completely seriously, so I wondered if maybe you didn't realize. Yeah, I tried to clarify what I meant, by mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 Democratic party may have a date with cancel culture, Princeton professors argue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 5 hours ago, Starlord said: Democratic party may have a date with cancel culture, Princeton professors argue It's interesting how each party argues that the other should be relegated to "the dust bin of history." But this article takes the "cancel culture" argument to an extreme. For example, the name of the month of July has long since ceased to have any significance to any auditor aside from that simple fact. Few people beyond historians even realize who it's named for. But monuments and statues to specific persons are deliberately designed to commemorate that person, and to make people aware of them. It's also disingenuous to ignore that many of the symbols and monuments to figures from the American Confederacy were raised during the civil rights movement, and the point they were making is very clear. Hotspur and Matt the Bruins 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 White House not allowing CDC representative to appear at subcommittee hearing on safely reopening schools Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csyphrett Posted July 18, 2020 Report Share Posted July 18, 2020 12 hours ago, Starlord said: White House not allowing CDC representative to appear at subcommittee hearing on safely reopening schools Probably because he would say something like don't be stupid CES Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted July 18, 2020 Report Share Posted July 18, 2020 That's consistent with Dictator 101: Control the Message. Dr. MID-Nite 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted July 18, 2020 Report Share Posted July 18, 2020 When is another nation going to invade us to enact regime change? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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