Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[Ragitsu]

Although I am grateful we have Republican opposition to Trump on our side, I keep reminding myself that some of those Republicans would enact many of the policies that Trump is trying to push through. They would work methodically and put on a saner, more urbane face. If Donald J. Trump is the bear dead ahead, then John Q. Republican is the adder in the bush.

[wcw43921]

I agree--organizations like The Lincoln Project may be allies with the Democrats in the fight to remove Trump, but once that is done they'll turn against them in the attempt to make their agenda into law.  Hopefully the Democrats will take all of Congress this year, as well as the Presidency.

[Cygnia]

This Presidency is Killing Relationships—and We’re All Grieving

[Ragitsu]

I think that if a President starts campaigning during their regular televised speeches (like Trump has done recently, because he can't really host rallies), their mic ought to be cut until they get the message. That isn't an intended use of my tax dollars. I am for publicly funded elections* (where the funds go to help schools and the like) that are roughly one-quarter the length they are now, but we are far from that model.

 

* Naturally, that means candidates cannot receive any private donations; all money must be accounted for on pain of disqualification from the race.

[ScottishFox]

15 hours ago, Cygnia said:

This Presidency is Killing Relationships—and We’re All Grieving

 

This is a byproduct of mutual intolerance.

 

Someone who disagrees with you can't just have a differing opinion.  They can't have had a lifetime of their own experiences and have reached a different conclusion on how things should work.

 

They have to - at the very least - be dangerously, stupidly wrong.

 

Usually that isn't enough anymore.  Now someone who disagrees with you has to be evil.  Not a little evil.  Very evil.

 

That's where we lost the plot.  Trump's stupidity and diarrhea of dishonesty isn't killing relationships.  We are.  We've become intolerant ass-hats.

 

My Sunday D&D table is pretty evenly split politically (couple of hard conservatives, couple of hard liberals and a couple of moderates) and we try to avoid political discourse while gaming, but it usually flares up once or twice.

One of the die-hard lefties at the table pulled me aside the other day and just thanked me for being so easy to talk to and disagree with (which we do on a lot of topics). 

 

I'm old enough to remember when that was the norm.  When we could disagree intensely, even mock each others ideas without throwing our friendships out the window.

 

I feel like I'm in the twilight zone.  It used to be the liberals defending free speech from tyrannical thought-policing evangelical types.  Now it's completely reversed where the conservatives are defending free speech from tyrannical thought-policing political correctness types.

[Lord Liaden]

No. It hasn't reversed. Positions on both sides have hardened and become more extreme, true; but the actual threats of thought-policing today are not coming from the left. Painting unequal things as equivalent is one of the factors that got us here.

[Starlord]

Social media has exacerbated intolerance and hatred exponentially IMO.  It allows you to easily voice 'opinions', but without the courtesy, temperance and natural back and forth dialogue of a face-to-face setting.

[TrickstaPriest]

36 minutes ago, ScottishFox said:

I feel like I'm in the twilight zone.  It used to be the liberals defending free speech from tyrannical thought-policing evangelical types.  Now it's completely reversed where the conservatives are defending free speech from tyrannical thought-policing political correctness types.

 

I hope you understand, the only times I've had to engage in 'thought policing' with my conservative friends is when they literally advocate for welfare to be cut so people on welfare can 'just die already'.

 

If you think political correctness is rough to deal with, try having friends talking about indirectly killing off your brother.

[DShomshak]

 

 

Apropos of this, today is part 2 of a look at "cancel culture/callout culture" on The Daily, the NYTimes radio program/podcast. They are trying to get into the complexity of the issues.

 

Dean Shomshak

[TrickstaPriest]

1 hour ago, TrickstaPriest said:

I hope you understand, the only times I've had to engage in 'thought policing' with my conservative friends is when they literally advocate for welfare to be cut so people on welfare can 'just die already'.

 

If you think political correctness is rough to deal with, try having friends talking about indirectly killing off your brother.

 

I guess the reason I'm calling this out specifically is to provide a very direct, concrete example of what this false equivalence looks and feels like.

 

To have a political situation where one side, literally some of your closest friends in the state, argues that 'wokeness is too much' and then talks about letting your brother die.

[TrickstaPriest]

This isn't an exaggeration or mis-portrayal.  This is literally what the political conversation is that I'm being expected to tolerate when they or I bring up politics.  The literal conversation about welfare with some of them is 'cut it and lets see how many corpses we get'.  Not a contortion, exaggeration, or mischaracterization of sarcasm, but nearly a quote verbatim of their frustration and anger at the general population and the program in general.

 

This is an uncommon but not rare sentiment I encounter substantially when I talk to people in this state long enough, and they feel safe and comfortable expressing how they feel around me.

 

No names are being named, as I do not think 'cancelling', 'harassing', or even 'yelling' at them is going to change anything.  By now, I'm "used to it".  As in this sentiment I hear from people online and in this state is so common that it's background noise.

 

At best some are willing to talk about issues with the program, but at their average they are so angry that they cannot express it without practically abusive tones, intent to humiliate and torment, when they have to crush any sentiment other than theirs... and at their worst they wish everyone on it would just die already.

 

This is the background radiation of my political conversation, ScottishFox (edit: referring to you, in that I'm telling you what my 'politically tolerant' life is like.  not that you are involved).  I put up with the political opinion of personal torment of my ideology, mass death as wish fulfillment, and unintentional-threat-of-genocide-over-wokeness, to maintain some of the few friendships I have around here.

 

edit:  The point.  This above is the scenario I deal with for not being "thought-policing".  I am the 'tolerant left', and this is what I regularly tolerate when politics comes up.

[Ragitsu]

There are some issues between the "two sides" you simply are never going to reconcile. It is impossible for me to be tolerant towards someone that thinks a rape victim should be forced to carry their rapist's offspring to term. Likewise, a person that thinks taxes are illegal and everything should be privatized (with the government's only role being that of violence) isn't going to find me sticking around for long.

[ScottishFox]

3 hours ago, TrickstaPriest said:

 

I guess the reason I'm calling this out specifically is to provide a very direct, concrete example of what this false equivalence looks and feels like.

 

To have a political situation where one side, literally some of your closest friends in the state, argues that 'wokeness is too much' and then talks about letting your brother die.

 

I hear you and trust me - this street runs both ways.

 

Watch a sample of #WalkAway videos and the most common theme you'll see is that people who start to disagree with their 'woke' friends is instant and brutal ostracism, name calling and cruelty.

 

I've watched Tim Pool (moderate Democrat) go from full on Bernie Sanders supporter to non-stop disgust at what passes for journalism these days and an angry, disgusted realization that he's going to have to vote for Trump (whom he openly despises ) because he can't vote for Biden and none of the candidates he liked made the cut.

 

I used to consider myself pretty moderate, but by modern standards I'd be a nutter.  Here's a poorly edited graphic borrowed from the NYT.

 

 

 

[TrickstaPriest]

16 minutes ago, ScottishFox said:

Watch a sample of #WalkAway videos and the most common theme you'll see is that people who start to disagree with their 'woke' friends is instant and brutal ostracism, name calling and cruelty.

 

 

Dude, I don't think you grasp the enormity of what I'm talking about here.

 

I have good friends talking casually about groups of people being killed (by policy or enforcement) as a desirable outcome, my brother included in that group.  If they were coworkers that I saw daily, I'd be hearing this more than once a week.

[Lord Liaden]

5 hours ago, ScottishFox said:

I feel like I'm in the twilight zone.  It used to be the liberals defending free speech from tyrannical thought-policing evangelical types.  Now it's completely reversed where the conservatives are defending free speech from tyrannical thought-policing political correctness types.

 

With respect, I've seen precious few instances in recent years of conservatives with a public profile defending free speech, unless it's the freedom for them to say what they believe, and shout down dissenting views. I've seen far too many examples of avowed conservatives characterizing the poor, immigrants, those with socialist leanings, and their political rivals as active enemies of the state aiming to destroy the "American way of life," and using propaganda and outright lies to work the American public into a frenzy over that "threat." You may say you've seen the other side do the same; in which case we would disagree on our perceptions, but I'm willing to grant the validity of your own experience. But one side in this debate currently holds the reins of power, and has shown a willingness to use intimidation and violence to enforce its vision on those who disagree.

[Ragitsu]

Also: no more Presidential speeches in the vicinity of helicopters, vehicles and/or noisy equipment.

[TrickstaPriest]

41 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

With respect, I've seen precious few instances in recent years of conservatives with a public profile defending free speech, unless it's the freedom for them to say what they believe, and shout down dissenting views. I've seen far too many examples of avowed conservatives characterizing the poor, immigrants, those with socialist leanings, and their political rivals as active enemies of the state aiming to destroy the "American way of life," and using propaganda and outright lies to work the American public into a frenzy over that "threat." You may say you've seen the other side do the same; in which case we would disagree on our perceptions, but I'm willing to grant the validity of your own experience. But one side in this debate currently holds the reins of power, and has shown a willingness to use intimidation and violence to enforce its vision on those who disagree.

 

Literally for the past three years I've been listening to 'the state' talk about 'liberals, welfare people, etc' the same way the Bush era talked about Muslims (edit: to be clear, I found this quite problematic to begin with, and that rhetoric was changed to be pointed at all liberals, for years now).  There's kind of a reason why so many 'liberals' are a bit upset right?

 

I won't discount politicians hijacking this upset, but I've seen more anti Jewish tripe online in the last three years than in my entire waking life.

 

I'm literally having conservative people I know and care about 'talk big' on things a single step away from 'exterminating people they find inconvenient' as a desirable outcome, as discussed on this board posts ago, and have people on these boards deflect on that issue as though it was not an actual enormous problem.

 

I'm literally talking about why I don't think some people here understand what they are talking about when talking about 'left being more tolerant'.  I have been tolerant for years, and that is what I am hearing in response. 

 

As a gift for my tolerance. 

 

Open talk about my brother's "group" being killed off (by policy or not).

 

edit:  The literal return on my patience and tolerance.  That.

[Starlord]

Looks like Senile Joe went with Kamala as VP

[Simon]

3 minutes ago, Starlord said:

Looks like Senile Joe went with Kamala as VP

Since I've been a bit lax of late, I'm going to post this publicly rather than quietly issuing a warning:  this post is not acceptable in this thread (which makes it unacceptable on the forums in general).

[Starlord]

2 minutes ago, Simon said:

Since I've been a bit lax of late, I'm going to post this publicly rather than quietly issuing a warning:  this post is not acceptable in this thread (which makes it unacceptable on the forums in general).

 

Ok.

[TrickstaPriest]

 

1 minute ago, Simon said:

Since I've been a bit lax of late, I'm going to post this publicly rather than quietly issuing a warning:  this post is not acceptable in this thread (which makes it unacceptable on the forums in general).

 

I'll clamor down as well.  I was certainly close to saying unfriendly things.

 

It's not that I think you are a problem, ScottishFox.  I'm arguing that the 'thought leadership' saying 'liberals need to be more tolerant' are astroturfing like crazy what I'm actually dealing with when I'm trying to be tolerant.

[ScottishFox]

9 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

I've seen far too many examples of avowed conservatives characterizing the poor, immigrants, those with socialist leanings, and their political rivals as active enemies of the state aiming to destroy the "American way of life," and using propaganda and outright lies to work the American public into a frenzy over that "threat."

 

No disagreement here.  The current administration lies with the best of them.  Also, politicians as a whole (both sides) are scummy liars who will say anything to get more power.

 

13 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

But one side in this debate currently holds the reins of power, and has shown a willingness to use intimidation and violence to enforce its vision on those who disagree.

 

The free speech threat I've seen has been growing steadily since the UC Berkley riots chasing Milo off campus.  150 violent, masked agitators.  Apparently the openly gay, married to a black guy (now) speaker had the wrong opinions about some things and the very same campus that protested FOR free speech decades earlier protested against it.  I've lost count of the number of conservative lawsuits filed because they simply can't get permission to speak at public schools as they are thwarted again and again for having speakers with the wrong opinions.  I personally find Milo intentionally offensive and since his social media banning - tragically deranged.  Still, if people want to see that show - they should be allowed to.

 

College campuses have become incredibly intolerant.  I've seen the police called on a PragerU reporter for asking a question.  When the police came they asked what the reporter had done and the student says,

"Well, they're racist so they shouldn't be allowed on campus and be able to talk to people".

 

I remember people calling my wife - who is Mexican - racist for voting for Trump and promptly ghosting her.

I had a guy show up to my home D&D game wearing a politically themed Punch a Nazi shirt.  AKA - It's OK to punch Trump supporters (like my wife) because they're Nazi's.  She's voted Democrat her entire (LONG) adult life and only in 2016 were things so crazy that she finally switched parties out of desperation.  This same lifetime Democrat is HAPPY with how Trump is handling things.  I'll probably vote for Jo Jorgensen because I'm so disgusted with Democrat and Republican I can't vote for either one.

 

How many people have been punched for wearing a MAGA hat while people walk around with hammer and sickle shirts without issue?  Che Guevara shirts?  No problem.

 

HR departments and big tech have picked up the fun with whole areas of discussion that will get you banned/fired for having the currently mainstream conservative opinion.  How about The White Coat summit and doctors being tech platform banned for contradicting the W.H.O. (which has done a bang up job with Coronavirus so far.  Especially fond of their refusing to listen to doctors from Hong Kong - which could have saved 10s of thousands of lives).

 

How about the presidents twitter/twitch accounts getting suspended for  - again - pretty mainstream conservative view points?

 

I watch Bill Maher and John Oliver AND Tucker Carlson.  I like to get a broad array of opinions, but one set of those opinions is getting smashed by cancel culture and big tech.  Can you imagine if we would have allowed this behavior with telephone companies in the past?  Says here you're a registered Democrat - No phone calls for you.

 

I remember people calling my wife - who is Mexican - racist for voting for Trump and promptly ghosting her.  Want to find out WHY she made that choice?  No?  Just assume evil and disappear?  Okay....

 

 

30 minutes ago, TrickstaPriest said:

I'm literally having conservative people I know and care about 'talk big' on things a single step away from 'exterminating people they find inconvenient' as a desirable outcome

 

That's pretty disgusting.  Sorry you're going through that.  I've heard and read similar things from left-leaning acquaintances of mine and it is beyond disturbing.

 

Things like "If people are still conservative at this point you've had your chance.  At a minimum they need to be taken into custody and re-educated.".

Hard pass on the re-education camps - for anyone - in my opinion.

 

34 minutes ago, TrickstaPriest said:

I won't discount politicians hijacking this upset, but I've seen more anti Jewish tripe online in the last three years than in my entire waking life.

 

Ditto.  Last time the anti-Jewish sentiment ramped up things turned out badly for everyone.

 

I also feel pretty similarly about the anti-white tripe the last few years.  White Privilege is racist garbage, imo, though I'd be down for Majority Privilege.  Because the former is racist and too often incorrect (I was a minority white for 15+ years and I did NOT feel privileged to be physically attacked and to struggle to find work for being white).  Selecting any race for open season on abuse only leads to horrible things.

I recall this KKK idiot passing around material in Junior High when I still lived in a overwhelmingly white area.  Like over 99%.  He was blaming black people for all of societies problems.

And I told him something along the lines of, "Man, there's like 1 black guy in town.  Your problems are because of YOU!"

 

California this year - again - has on the ballot the option to roll back government protections against hiring based on race and gender.  Unless I misread something it's like they want to repeal the civil rights act.  Well intentioned or not - that road leads to hell.

 

OK, I've rambled on for too long.

Love this place and you guys for even entertaining conversations like this.  And HERO system.  God I love this game system.  I got a table back up and running this Saturday (with clean freaky Corona protections in place).  Blue and gold D6s for life.

[wcw43921]

Here's a proper announcement, then--

 

Biden Selects Kamala Harris As His Running Mate

[Ragitsu]

5 minutes ago, wcw43921 said:

Here's a proper announcement, then--

 

Biden Selects Kamala Harris As His Running Mate

 

*sigh*

[Ragitsu]

The United States of America needs a rascally kid from the 1950s to break its Overton Window with a stray baseball so it can be replaced by something better.