Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[DShomshak]

As mentioned, Trumps debts may be more "interesting" than his tax shenanigans. (Though those are apparently push-the-envelope even for the tx dodges of the super-rich. Claiming property taxes on a private residence as a business expense?) The analyst from the "Trump Inc." podcast noted that those personal debts might give foreign actors some pretty powerful leverage on Trump if he can't shell out the money on time. The scenario I imagine is a hostile government buys the dbts from the banks, then tells Trump, "Do this official act, and we will cancel the debt. Refuse us, and try to foreclose on Trump Tower. Or even if you can pay, we tell the world how you're sending big gobs of money to a known enemy. Which course do you find less humiliating?"

 

Dean Shomshak

[Simon]

Russia has been at the top of the bank fraud/hacking game for a LONG time now.  Most often, they wouldn't need/want to take on the debt themselves - they have enough leverage on the banks (read: extortion) to be better off using them as a shield/cover for their activities.

[Badger]

No plans on watching tonight. I am too worried this is going to turn into Wallace vs Trump, which will do the voters no good. And irritate the hell out of me.

 

Hopefully, my blood pressure will thank me.

[archer]

7 hours ago, DShomshak said:

As mentioned, Trumps debts may be more "interesting" than his tax shenanigans. (Though those are apparently push-the-envelope even for the tx dodges of the super-rich. Claiming property taxes on a private residence as a business expense?) The analyst from the "Trump Inc." podcast noted that those personal debts might give foreign actors some pretty powerful leverage on Trump if he can't shell out the money on time. The scenario I imagine is a hostile government buys the dbts from the banks, then tells Trump, "Do this official act, and we will cancel the debt. Refuse us, and try to foreclose on Trump Tower. Or even if you can pay, we tell the world how you're sending big gobs of money to a known enemy. Which course do you find less humiliating?"

 

Dean Shomshak

 

Deutsche Bank has been the only financial institution which has been willing to loan to the Trump corporations over the last couple of decades. God knows why they would, from a business standpoint. Deutsche Bank's largest shareholder is HNA Group which is a Chinese company.

 

Trump's only other possible white knight lender would appear to be Russian oligarchs or the Russian government.

 

35 minutes ago, Badger said:

No plans on watching tonight. I am too worried this is going to turn into Wallace vs Trump, which will do the voters no good. And irritate the hell out of me.

 

Hopefully, my blood pressure will thank me.

 

Well, Wallace vs Trump isn't all bad news if it's Wallace trying to make Trump actually answer a question rather than glossing over it and rambling on about something else.

 

I've found it helpful at times to read a transcript rather than watching it.

[Badger]

25 minutes ago, archer said:

 

Deutsche Bank has been the only financial institution which has been willing to loan to the Trump corporations over the last couple of decades. God knows why they would, from a business standpoint. Deutsche Bank's largest shareholder is HNA Group which is a Chinese company.

 

Trump's only other possible white knight lender would appear to be Russian oligarchs or the Russian government.

 

 

Well, Wallace vs Trump isn't all bad news if it's Wallace trying to make Trump actually answer a question rather than glossing over it and rambling on about something else.

 

I've found it helpful at times to read a transcript rather than watching it.

Dont get me wrong I understand some of the why, but I prefer debates where moderators rarely interfere.  Voters need to know if their candidate can fight their own battles. Obviously sometimes it is necessary. But, it can be like a football game that has 20 holding penalties called.

 

 

[Badger]

Or I guess I should clarify, I dont want to leave thinking the true winner was the moderator.

[Pariah]

I'll take a moment here to insert my long-held opinion that political debates are like NASCAR races. Nobody cares who wins; people just tune in to see who's going to crash.

[Old Man]

2 minutes ago, Pariah said:

I'll take a moment here to insert my long-held opinion that political debates are like NASCAR races. Nobody cares who wins; people just tune in to see who's going to crash.

 

They ought to love this debate then.  One candidate came ready to play chess, the other came to knock over all the pieces and s--t on the table.

[Pariah]

... which I suppose demonstrates the principle difference between political debates and NASCAR. In NASCAR, only one guy can clearly make a claim that he won.

[Old Man]

In this case, we know who lost--the American voters.  I mean at least kill the guy's mike if he won't stop talking over everyone.

[Hermit]

A mute button on the mics would solve SO many problems or at least hem in some of the chaos

[Pariah]

As I said on the other thread a couple of days ago: Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty, and the pig likes it.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Hermit said:

A mute button on the mics would solve SO many problems or at least hem in some of the chaos

 

Maybe the moderator for the next debate should be a referee from the National Hockey League. Whenever either party commits a foul, they get two minutes in the penalty box.

[TrickstaPriest]

39 minutes ago, Pariah said:

As I said on the other thread a couple of days ago: Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty, and the pig likes it.

 

 

Unfortunately Joe Biden had to show he was at least competent enough to answer questions and talk to human beings.

 

 

Keep in mind my 'basic human competency' requirement is being pushed, as I think Harris is probably the most there, with Biden following.  Pence I don't know how much is allowed to do anything with Trump there.

[Thia Halmades]

2 hours ago, Old Man said:

 

They ought to love this debate then.  One candidate came ready to play chess, the other came to knock over all the pieces and s--t on the table.

 

I think you’ve captured the heart of my opinion. My greatest concern is that when given an opportunity to denounce white nationalism, and a name, which Trump asked for, and was provided “Proud Boys,” he said “stand back, and stand by.” 

 

They’ve now turned this into a new banner. It’s truly chilling. I think if I said anything else I would risk wandering into @Simon land, so I’ll leave it there. I think I am safe in saying this: anyone who believes that is a proper and rational response to being told to denounce white supremacy is not someone I want to know.

[Badger]

51 minutes ago, TrickstaPriest said:

 

Unfortunately Joe Biden had to show he was at least competent enough to answer questions and talk to human beings.

 

 

Keep in mind my 'basic human competency' requirement is being pushed, as I think Harris is probably the most there, with Biden following.  Pence I don't know how much is allowed to do anything with Trump there.

 

Sounds like we will all be losing 2021 to 2025

[TrickstaPriest]

32 minutes ago, Badger said:

Sounds like we will all be losing 2021 to 2025

 

The alternative is someone who doesn't understand how viruses/vaccines work, and/or doesn't care.

 

One takeaway I had from this is that I think Trump genuinely thinks he can yell at scientists to make a vaccine come faster, and it will.  It's the whole 'run govment as a business' model.  Someone not finishing fast enough?  Yell at them!  Problem come up?  If it's easy, solve it, other wise just damage control and obfuscate!  Don't bother trying to fix a complicated problem, you'll fail anyway.  And of course, my favorite:  Someone disagrees with you for any reason?  Fire them!

 

Given more infections is related to more mutations, how long will a vaccine even work on covid?  What side effects will there be?

 

 

Last observation.  Trump's suggestion that he was preventing a panic by lying about covid is laughable.  To put this in perspective.

 

Let's say you believed you were in danger of losing your job.  Would you want a partner to say "Don't worry, I think you are overthinking.  Even if it is possible, we have a financial plan and options if things go bad."

 

or

 

"Don't worry you can't lose your job!  It's impossible!  It'll never happen!!!!"

[Old Man]

57 minutes ago, Thia Halmades said:

 

I think you’ve captured the heart of my opinion. My greatest concern is that when given an opportunity to denounce white nationalism, and a name, which Trump asked for, and was provided “Proud Boys,” he said “stand back, and stand by.” 

This is the takeaway soundbite from this “debate”. As a conservative commentator put it, “Trump isn’t running against Biden, he’s running against the election”. 

[Thia Halmades]

7 minutes ago, Old Man said:

This is the takeaway soundbite from this “debate”. As a conservative commentator put it, “Trump isn’t running against Biden, he’s running against the election”. 

 

I agree with you, this was not a debate; he was not engaging with intent to debate, he intended to drive people away, to convince them to tune out, because the current poll data shows an exceptionally strong lead, and voters who reinforce that lead mean a referendum and forced accountability. That would go against the existing narrative of being a “rule breaking deal maker.” The goal here is to push everyone out of the picture and failing that, to plan on dragging the election into a stacked SCOTUS. 

 

When you’re planning on fighting the results, when you insist repeatedly that the election is rigged, and you call for fascist groups to poll watch — that suggests you know where this is going and you’re grasping for any possible way to remain in power.

[archer]

5 minutes ago, Thia Halmades said:

 

I agree with you, this was not a debate; he was not engaging with intent to debate, he intended to drive people away, to convince them to tune out, because the current poll data shows an exceptionally strong lead, and voters who reinforce that lead mean a referendum and forced accountability. That would go against the existing narrative of being a “rule breaking deal maker.” The goal here is to push everyone out of the picture and failing that, to plan on dragging the election into a stacked SCOTUS. 

 

When you’re planning on fighting the results, when you insist repeatedly that the election is rigged, and you call for fascist groups to poll watch — that suggests you know where this is going and you’re grasping for any possible way to remain in power.

 

He's got to keep it somewhat close in order to be able to credibly claim that the margin of loss was due to fraud. 

 

So I don't really understand this debate performance from Trump which seemed designed to make people hate Trump even more. Trump is behind nationally by up to 10 points and is behind in most swing states by 5-7. He's got to narrow the gap at some point in order to make the argument that it was stolen from him.

 

If he ends election night behind and there's still all those mail-in Biden ballots to count, he can't claim "I won" on election night then whine it was stolen from him the next day.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Tonight's "debate" was an insult to anyone with even a modicum of intelligence or critical thinking skills. Just when I think the bar can't go any lower....they dig a few feet deeper to make it fit. Nothing of substance regarding how to solve America's many problems. Instead, we get a "bitchfest". I swear I almost felt like turning in my citizenship card. It was that bad.

[archer]

I thought Biden's biggest missed opportunity of the night was when it came to coronavirus.

 

Biden was in the White House and, over his four years, would have sat through at least one of the global pandemic roleplaying scenarios that they go through. So he's seen all the government plans. He's seen how whoever was in charge during that scenario acted. He would have sat through the after-action report where the experts would point out what they did right, and many times, where they lost control of the situation.

 

Biden should have told the audience that he knew for sure that Trump didn't react appropriately and that Trump didn't follow the existing plans because he, Biden, had been sitting there close enough to have seen what the plans were and to have seen what the appropriate actions were. And that Trump, intentionally, didn't do any of it and CHOSE to let the pandemic run wild.

 

Then quote the US having only 4% of world population but with 20% of the world's deaths as the consequence of Trump's knowing choice.

7 minutes ago, Dr. MID-Nite said:

Tonight's "debate' was an insult to anyone with even a modicum of intelligence or critical thinking skills. Just when I think the bar can't go any lower....they dig a few feet deeper to make it fit. Nothing of substance regarding how to solve America's many problems. Instead, we get a "bitchfest". I swear I almost felt like turning in my citizenship card. It was that bad.

 

Hang on to that citizenship card. In the future, it might be a neat novelty item.

[Old Man]

Best debate comment yet:

 

[Lectryk]

3 hours ago, Badger said:

 

Sounds like we will all be losing 2021 to 2025

 

Why the optimism for 2025?  

[Cygnia]

 

[Hermit]

I need a laugh-cry  emoji as a reaction option to some of these