Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[archer 1,729]

Debate, first impressions about 50 minutes in.

 

Trump is on ADD medication. Unnaturally (for him) calm.

 

Biden is deliberately pulling his punches and not going for openings Trump is leaving him. Biden also is not defending himself on the fake emails...and isn't pointing out that the FBI is investigating them as a Russian intelligence operation.

 

Maybe pulling his punches is a strategy since he's ahead and doesn't want to appear too aggressive.

 

I don't understand at all why he isn't trying to forcefully deny the emails. Whether they're completely true (yeah, right) or not, the thing to do politically is to deny they're true forcefully.

 

edit:

 

Trump really making an outreach to the Latino community by saying only those refugees and illegal immigrants who have low IQ's show up for their court dates.

 

edit:

 

Trump said, "I am the least racist person in this room". A statement which would include the audience, the moderator, and his own advisors who came to the debate with him. Then Trump said it again and specifically said that he was including the audience that he was less racist than them. Note some of his own family were supposed to be in the audience but I don't know if they actually showed up.

[ScottishFox 570]

Easily my favorite of the debates to date.

 

Probably my favorite of the debates in the last 8 years.

 

The moderator was spectacular.  Bring her back.  For everything.  Kudos to her.

 

I kind of agree with Archer that Joe's defenses to some of the accusations were a little light. 

Just saying "Not True!" isn't going to sway people who are concerned with the recent email dust up which was recently reinforced by the testimony of Bobulinski and the junior partner in prison.

 

I think Joe's overall demeanor was more likable and I think his performance should brush away any of the dementia concerns.  He held up very well.

Easily the more likable candidate of the two.  If you're concerned about personality and presentation from the president - Joe made a good case.

 

Out of all of Trump's blathering I found his attacks along the lines of, "You were VP for 8 years and didn't do anything." or "You've been a politician for 47 years and didn't do anything." hit the mark.

Biden admitting his crime bill from 26 years ago was a mistake is particularly bad since he's had 2.5 decades to fix it and hasn't.

 

Also, I was SO impressed by the moderator.  She is awesome.

[megaplayboy 1,642]

42 minutes ago, ScottishFox said:

Easily my favorite of the debates to date.

 

Probably my favorite of the debates in the last 8 years.

 

The moderator was spectacular.  Bring her back.  For everything.  Kudos to her.

 

I kind of agree with Archer that Joe's defenses to some of the accusations were a little light. 

Just saying "Not True!" isn't going to sway people who are concerned with the recent email dust up which was recently reinforced by the testimony of Bobulinski and the junior partner in prison.

 

I think Joe's overall demeanor was more likable and I think his performance should brush away any of the dementia concerns.  He held up very well.

Easily the more likable candidate of the two.  If you're concerned about personality and presentation from the president - Joe made a good case.

 

Out of all of Trump's blathering I found his attacks along the lines of, "You were VP for 8 years and didn't do anything." or "You've been a politician for 47 years and didn't do anything." hit the mark.

Biden admitting his crime bill from 26 years ago was a mistake is particularly bad since he's had 2.5 decades to fix it and hasn't.

 

Also, I was SO impressed by the moderator.  She is awesome.

One of the elements of "didn't do anything" is the assumption that the person in question had the unilateral ability to do things.  Generally speaking, with a two party system, 3 branches, 2 chambers, numerous veto points, they don't.  It also tends to be a cheap "gotcha" move when said politician obviously doesn't have time to talk about all the various incremental measures they did enact/propose/support.  

 

It amazes me that Trump doesn't get more pushback on the "I can't release my tax returns while they're under audit" bs.  First, it would be his lawyer advising him not to, not his accountant.  Second, there's literally nothing legally stopping him from releasing his returns and it's hard to see how it would affect his audit in any material fashion.

[Old Man 11,245]

I tried to watch this but couldn’t, and to be honest I stuck my ballot in the box two weeks ago. I understand no one was hit with a folding chair, so that’s disappointing. I guess Trump managed to act almost like a human being, but it would take more than that to move the needle in the polls. A lot more. 

[archer 1,729]

1 hour ago, ScottishFox said:

 

Biden admitting his crime bill from 26 years ago was a mistake is particularly bad since he's had 2.5 decades to fix it and hasn't.

 

 

Biden has repeatedly admitted the crime bill was a mistake for at least the last 15 years and in front of all kinds of audiences. And on the floor of the Senate, if I recall correctly.

 

As for fixing it, megaplayboy addressed that well:

 

26 minutes ago, megaplayboy said:

One of the elements of "didn't do anything" is the assumption that the person in question had the unilateral ability to do things.  Generally speaking, with a two party system, 3 branches, 2 chambers, numerous veto points, they don't.  It also tends to be a cheap "gotcha" move when said politician obviously doesn't have time to talk about all the various incremental measures they did enact/propose/support.  

 

 

[Badger 1,786]

2 hours ago, archer said:

Debate, first impressions about 50 minutes in.

 

Trump is on ADD medication. Unnaturally (for him) calm.

 

Biden is deliberately pulling his punches and not going for openings Trump is leaving him. Biden also is not defending himself on the fake emails...and isn't pointing out that the FBI is investigating them as a Russian intelligence operation.

 

Maybe pulling his punches is a strategy since he's ahead and doesn't want to appear too aggressive.

 

I don't understand at all why he isn't trying to forcefully deny the emails. Whether they're completely true (yeah, right) or not, the thing to do politically is to deny they're true forcefully.

 

edit:

 

Trump really making an outreach to the Latino community by saying only those refugees and illegal immigrants who have low IQ's show up for their court dates.

 

edit:

 

Trump said, "I am the least racist person in this room". A statement which would include the audience, the moderator, and his own advisors who came to the debate with him. Then Trump said it again and specifically said that he was including the audience that he was less racist than them. Note some of his own family were supposed to be in the audience but I don't know if they actually showed up.

Yeah, I am not convinced he is as ahead as the polls claim.  Maybe ahead, but the country is too divided for him to pull off the quasi-Mondale beatdown some of the polls claim.

 

Plus those polls are way too similar to 2016. And well, did the pollsters bother to learn from history?

[archer 1,729]

21 minutes ago, Badger said:

Yeah, I am not convinced he is as ahead as the polls claim.  Maybe ahead, but the country is too divided for him to pull off the quasi-Mondale beatdown some of the polls claim.

 

Plus those polls are way too similar to 2016. And well, did the pollsters bother to learn from history?

 

I've seen deep dives into the specifics of several recent polls. 

 

In 2016, Trump showed shocking strength in the election with suburban white women and seniors which pre-election polling didn't show. He had been doing okay in polling with those groups but not all that great. And that surprising strength in those two groups turned out to be the margin of victory for him.

 

In polling now, Trump's numbers with suburban white women has just massively tanked and the same with seniors. And he's solidly worse with suburban white men who he carried easily in 2016 polling (and election).

 

Where Trump is doing better, and staying somewhat in the race, is that he's doing slightly better with blacks and Hispanics than in 2016.

 

I don't think it's reasonable to expect suburban white women and seniors, who measurably hate Trump these days, to come out in surprisingly high numbers to vote for him.

 

And I can't wrap my minds around the idea that massively high numbers of blacks and Hispanics are going to flock to the polls to rescue Trump either.

 

To be ahead of Biden, Trump has got to be strong somewhere. And it's not like it's some secret shame to be a Trump voter these days like it was in 2016. People have really learned these past years to let their freak flag fly.

 

 

This is an interesting series of weekly articles from a reporter who's opening up his notebook and writing down his impressions of what's going on with voters in the last four weeks before the election as he's following the campaigns around to various states.

 

4 Funny Feelings About 2020

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/10/06/four-notes-election-reporter-notebook-426599

 

3 More Funny Feelings About 2020

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/10/13/three-more-2020-feelings-429075

 

2 More Funny Feelings About 2020

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/10/20/alberta-two-weeks-2020-election-feelings-430238

[Old Man 11,245]

1 hour ago, archer said:

 

Biden has repeatedly admitted the crime bill was a mistake for at least the last 15 years and in front of all kinds of audiences. And on the floor of the Senate, if I recall correctly.

 

As for fixing it, megaplayboy addressed that well:

 

 

 Biden: Wrote a bad crime bill once. 
 

Trump:

Fumbled a pandemic killing a quarter million Americans. 
Hid tax returns showing he paid $750 in tax and broke campaign finance laws. 
Dodged the draft, then called veterans “stupid” and “losers”, and stood by while Putin put a price on American soldiers’ heads. 
Signed a tax giveaway for the rich that sent the deficit sailing over $1T. 
Then used the pandemic to give away more trillions to corporations while regular Americans struggle to pay rent and medical bills. (Now the deficit is over $3T.)

Ordered immigrant children to be separated from their parents at the border and housed in cages. 
Refused to denounce the Proud Boys or QAnon. 
Inflamed the worst civil unrest and riots in fifty years. 
 

Still want to compare records?  You almost can’t blame the guy for running against Hunter Biden. 
 

[Pattern Ghost 2,582]

You forgot the creepy hair sniffing for Biden. *

 

I'm pretty sure you missed a metric butt-ton for Trump.

 

 

*Not sure if best emoji, but it's the only one I saw with hair.

[archer 1,729]

7 minutes ago, Pattern Ghost said:

You forgot the creepy hair sniffing for Biden. *

 

 

Hair sniffing isn't creepy.

 

At least none of the women who've been asleep when I've done it have complained....

[Old Man 11,245]

26 minutes ago, Pattern Ghost said:

You forgot the creepy hair sniffing for Biden. *

 

I’ll see your creepy hair sniffing and raise you a long history of hanging out with Jeffrey Epstein and lots of girls who were under the age of consent. 

23 minutes ago, archer said:

 

Hair sniffing isn't creepy.

 

At least none of the women who've been asleep when I've done it have complained....

 

[TrickstaPriest 282]

I still haven't forgotten the Twitter war with North Korea that nearly became a literal one.  😕

 

We could be here all day, and a quarter or more of what I'd list would have to do with twitter this or rally that.

[ScottishFox 570]

Seriously, though.  The new format was GREAT!

 

I recommend this setup for all debates going forward.  It was so much better than all of the previous ones with candidates (especially Trump) yelling over one another.

 

And the moderator was amazeballs.

[archer 1,729]

13 minutes ago, ScottishFox said:

Seriously, though.  The new format was GREAT!

 

I recommend this setup for all debates going forward.  It was so much better than all of the previous ones with candidates (especially Trump) yelling over one another.

 

And the moderator was amazeballs.

 

Just knowing the mute button was there did seem to do a lot to keep Trump under control. 

 

If he'd needed to be muted, that would have been the story of the debate and that wouldn't have moved his candidacy forward.

 

But I wasn't kidding earlier about Trump being on ADHD medication. He was visibly more subdued than normal even when he got agitated. It reminded me very strongly about the difference between elementary kids who have ADHD on days when the parent remembers giving them their medicine vs days when they forgot to give the kid their medicine. 

 

I don't know if they actually gave Trump something like Adderall or if they just gave him a massive dose of caffeine (which tends to calm down and focus people who have ADHD). But Trump behaved noticeably different than at rallies, interviews, the previous debate....  

[TrickstaPriest 282]

1 minute ago, archer said:

But I wasn't kidding earlier about Trump being on ADHD medication. He was visibly more subdued than normal even when he got agitated. It reminded me very strongly about the difference between elementary kids who have ADHD on days when the parent remembers giving them their medicine vs days when they forgot to give the kid their medicine. 

 

 

I've been assuming he's been ADD/ADHD for a long time.  He's very clearly frustrated an incredible amount of his staff with his inability to focus.  It also explains his rambling diatribes, heavy twitter and tv usage, etc...  He's unable to prepare, practice, do anything that takes any amount of concentration or time.  He completely adlibs everything and tries to wing everything he runs into. 

 

He has ADHD and he's absolutely refused to do anything about it, behaviorally or otherwise.  So maybe it's good that they put him on that.

 

People talked about cognitive decline, but I pretty much pegged it at ADHD for a good long while.

[archer 1,729]

1 minute ago, TrickstaPriest said:

 

I've been assuming he's been ADD/ADHD for a long time.  He's very clearly frustrated an incredible amount of his staff with his inability to focus.  It also explains his rambling diatribes, heavy twitter and tv usage, etc...  He's unable to prepare, practice, do anything that takes any amount of concentration or time.  He completely adlibs everything and tries to wing everything he runs into. 

 

He has ADHD and he's absolutely refused to do anything about it, behaviorally or otherwise.  So maybe it's good that they put him on that.

 

People talked about cognitive decline, but I pretty much pegged it at ADHD for a good long while.

 

I figured it was both since he's shown signs of both.

 

Since he's consistently insisted nothing is wrong with him, if they did manage to get some medicine down him, I'd guess either it's a one-time thing or they slipped it into his food or drink without him knowing.

 

I guess we'll see in a few hours. A dose of Adderall lasts from six hours to 24 hours depending on a number of factors. 

 

If he's the same in a couple of days as he was tonight, maybe they finally got him on meds.

 

If he returns to "normal", probably not.

[Lord Liaden 6,833]

Fact check: The final 2020 presidential election debate

 

A fairly thorough and balanced analysis of the veracity of the claims by the two candidates during the final debate. Although the CNN story's opening does spin the result rather in favor of Biden, both candidates are called on falsehoods. The story also provides context for remarks from both of them when the facts didn't exactly align with either truth or falsehood.

[archer 1,729]

55 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

Fact check: The final 2020 presidential election debate

 

A fairly thorough and balanced analysis of the veracity of the claims by the two candidates during the final debate. Although the CNN story's opening does spin the result rather in favor of Biden, both candidates are called on falsehoods. The story also provides context for remarks from both of them when the facts didn't exactly align with either truth or falsehood.

 

Nice link.

 

====

 

Biden: Trump wants to end payroll tax that funds Social Security

 

Facts First: This is not quite true. Trump signed an executive measure in August giving employers the ability to defer Social Security's payroll taxes until the end of the year....

 

====

 

This is one of the common problem with fact-checking articles: they focus on one thing rather than looking at everything related to the topic.

 

Trump and administration officials have repeatedly spoken in favor of permanently eliminating the part of the payroll tax which is the only funding for the Social Security disability program...and replacing it with nothing at all. And that's a totally separate issue than what the fact checker chose to focus upon.

 

Trump hasn't signed an executive order for it. But he's repeatedly talked about how he wants to eliminate that tax as part of his plan to revitalize the economy.

 

I think I've complained about it here sometime in the past few months and linked to an article talking about it.

[megaplayboy 1,642]

3 hours ago, TrickstaPriest said:

 

I've been assuming he's been ADD/ADHD for a long time.  He's very clearly frustrated an incredible amount of his staff with his inability to focus.  It also explains his rambling diatribes, heavy twitter and tv usage, etc...  He's unable to prepare, practice, do anything that takes any amount of concentration or time.  He completely adlibs everything and tries to wing everything he runs into. 

 

He has ADHD and he's absolutely refused to do anything about it, behaviorally or otherwise.  So maybe it's good that they put him on that.

 

People talked about cognitive decline, but I pretty much pegged it at ADHD for a good long while.

You can have ADHD and still focus.  

[Starlord 4,836]

51 minutes ago, megaplayboy said:

You can have ADHD and still focus.  

 

I'm not a doctor, but in my experience ADHD is often wildly misdiagnosed and the lack of focus may sometimes come into play when you are forced to concentrate on tasks that are mundane or uninteresting to you personally.

 

Trump is a 70+ year old billionaire(??) who has probably spent the last 30 years in short 15-30 minute meetings where his lawyers and underlings were the ones who actually hunkered down and ironed out the details while he just barked an order then went golfing.  It's possible he's just a thoroughly undisciplined person and/or this is just what it looks like when you have one of the least qualified leaders in recorded history.

[archer 1,729]

A federal judge on Thursday dismissed a lawsuit from President Trump’s re-election campaign to block New Jersey Gov. Phil Murphy’s (D) plan to send mail-in ballots to all registered voters

 

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/522404-judge-throws-out-trump-campaign-lawsuit-against-new-jersey-mail-in

 

I'd expect the administration to appeal. But considering the state is going to have to get the ballots in the mail in order to have any chance of getting them back before election day, I don't know that another court would have time to consider the case before the ballots hit the mail.

 

After they're in the mail, the lawsuit is moot.

 

 

And is it just me or are the Republicans going through extraordinary efforts nationwide in the courts and legislatures to prevent people from voting in this election?

 

/s

[Pariah 7,748]

 To be racist means, at least in part, that you value some people less than others based on the color of their skin or their nation or continent of origin. That part is fairly straightforward. 

 

But what if you don't value anyone at all? What if you see those around you not as people, but as either followers to be exploited or enemies to be attacked, regardless of skin color either way? 

 

That would make you a miserable individual, sure. But I don't think we could really call you a racist. 

 

By this definition, I suppose the President's claim to be "the least racist person in this room" might actually be true. 

 

You can't be a racist if you despise everyone equally.

[Starlord 4,836]

Basically.  Narcissistic personality disorder leads to a tendency to view everyone around you as objects to be used when necessary.

[archer 1,729]

57 minutes ago, Pariah said:

 To be racist means, at least in part, that you value some people less than others based on the color of their skin or their nation or continent of origin. That part is fairly straightforward. 

 

But what if you don't value anyone at all? What if you see those around you not as people, but as either followers to be exploited or enemies to be attacked, regardless of skin color either way? 

 

That would make you a miserable individual, sure. But I don't think we could really call you a racist. 

 

By this definition, I suppose the President's claim to be "the least racist person in this room" might actually be true. 

 

You can't be a racist if you despise everyone equally.

 

He values everyone less because they aren't genetically exactly Donald Trump.

 

That's racist.

[archer 1,729]

17 minutes ago, archer said:

 

He values everyone less because they aren't genetically exactly Donald Trump.

 

That's racist.

 

I might be more inclined to cut him a break on his racism but there's media reports in 2016 of how black employees in his casinos had to go hide in a back room when he came around because he didn't like to see them working there.

 

And there's multiple reports dating back decades about...insensitive...things he's said about Jewish people.

 

I can share links if anyone is that interested in verifying it.