Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[Hugh Neilson]

2 hours ago, Greywind said:

 

Minimum wage goes up, less people and more kiosks up front.

 

 

Let's assume the only change is that the minimum wage rises so we pay more per hour for the same number of hours at the bottom of the pay scale.  What happens?

 

The more skilled, experienced, higher-paid employees see those at the bottom getting more.  They are, or so they feel, more valuable than those at the bottom.  They want higher compensation.  Will we have the line staff, the shift manager and the store manager all earn the same, or will wages rise across the scale to compensate, and maintain an incentive to advance to more senior, more responsible, higher-work, higher-stress positions?

 

The business owners can either accept lower profits, or they can raise prices.  Now, let's remember that many small business owners are also not making billions annually - they are just squeaking by too.    Many are earning less than minimum wage for their own labour.  Unless the goal is to concentrate all business ownership in mega-corporations, they have to be able to survive too.They raise prices so they can make ends meet.  Not just to cover increased wages - all of their suppliers are raising prices, because they have to pay higher wages too, and those higher costs also have to be covered.

 

So, with higher prices, those higher wages aren't translating to a higher standard of living, just higher inflation.  An arbitrary change to wage levels, with no changes in actual resources or productivity, just means the price of those resources goes up.  There is still only so much to go around.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

29 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Let's assume the only change is that the minimum wage rises so we pay more per hour for the same number of hours at the bottom of the pay scale.  What happens?

 

The more skilled, experienced, higher-paid employees see those at the bottom getting more.  They are, or so they feel, more valuable than those at the bottom.  They want higher compensation.  Will we have the line staff, the shift manager and the store manager all earn the same, or will wages rise across the scale to compensate, and maintain an incentive to advance to more senior, more responsible, higher-work, higher-stress positions?

 

The business owners can either accept lower profits, or they can raise prices.  Now, let's remember that many small business owners are also not making billions annually - they are just squeaking by too.    Many are earning less than minimum wage for their own labour.  Unless the goal is to concentrate all business ownership in mega-corporations, they have to be able to survive too.They raise prices so they can make ends meet.  Not just to cover increased wages - all of their suppliers are raising prices, because they have to pay higher wages too, and those higher costs also have to be covered.

 

So, with higher prices, those higher wages aren't translating to a higher standard of living, just higher inflation.  An arbitrary change to wage levels, with no changes in actual resources or productivity, just means the price of those resources goes up.  There is still only so much to go around.

 

So what you're saying is the American capitalist system is inherently flawed. Not exactly news. That said...again....minimum wage is much higher in other First World countries and they're not falling apart. It's the vast income disparity and corporate greed that keeps our unfair system going. We have plenty of resources.

 

[TrickstaPriest]

44 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

So, with higher prices, those higher wages aren't translating to a higher standard of living, just higher inflation.  An arbitrary change to wage levels, with no changes in actual resources or productivity, just means the price of those resources goes up.  There is still only so much to go around.

 

The argument is also versus automation, which is ridiculous.

 

If you want to know why foreign workers are being paid to do work, it's because they earn 1/10th of what we do.  This is literal - at a previous company, our team got wind of that.  And we were underpaid, as a team, for our work, by a significant degree.  Everyone at the company was.

 

So just to compete with a foreign worker, you are not talking about minimum wage.  You are talking about competing with someone paid 5k a year.

 

Now, let's talk about machines.

 

Paying a few people part time to maintain a set of machines is a fair investment.  But there will be service companies competing to lower prices on that.  Your service contract will not be high.  Even if it's a million dollars, that could be to literally maintain nearly a hundred thousand such devices.  Each of those devices doing the work of at least one person, much more quickly and expediently.

 

The only exception to this right now is mechanical work, like factories.  But workers there are trained within weeks or months.  There's no point in them caring overly much if they fire such people - only the real dedicated ones are kept happy.  The rest they can easily undercut and underfund.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_theft#:~:text=Nationally it is estimated that,all forms of wage theft.

 

The other reason I mention mechanical parts is because they break down faster than electronic ones.

 

Of course, videos advertising displaying new tech for free movement across factory floors with minimal mechanical parts has been out for a few months now...

[csyphrett]

I am still making the same pay today that i was in O3 when I got this job. Everything else has gone up. Everything will continue to go up whether pay goes up or not. If you want to change the system, you have to make it that people at the top don't bankrupt their companies with bonuses like the Hostess people

CES

[archer]

57 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Let's assume the only change is that the minimum wage rises so we pay more per hour for the same number of hours at the bottom of the pay scale.  What happens?

 

 

I think a lot of people are ignoring the "only".

 

To make a higher minimum wage work in the way that people are wanting it to work, there needs to be changes to more things than only the minimum wage.

[TrickstaPriest]

Just now, archer said:

 

I think a lot of people are ignoring the "only".

 

To make a higher minimum wage work in the way that people are wanting it to work, there needs to be changes to more things than only the minimum wage.

 

Good point, and I'm sorry for the diatribe on that Hugh.

 

To finish my thought though.

 

Automation just sort of runs over the entire issue with a steamroller.  In the example, a more realistic contract would be $10+ million, maybe even $15 million, for 100k machines.  But that functionally means each machine is being maintained/run for $150 a year.  Even if the value of the dollar collapsed, that would effectively mean they would just find or train workers willing to maintain those machines for the new economy, for effectively costing themselves the same rough rate.

 

The only change to that value rate is how difficult the task is to automate, and how much wear the machine parts take.  The former is the only real holdup, and only because of initial investment capital to take it that far.  Once they get it to the point customers will utilize the automated tools, the entire pay rate becomes irrelevant.

[Ragitsu]

 

[Pariah]

So far I haven't had to unfriend/unfollow anyone on social media for spouting conspiracy theorist "Biden stole the election!" bovine scatological material. I am pleasantly surprised that this is the case, but I don't expect it to last.

[death tribble]

Boris congratulates Joe and you can hear Donnie calling him a 'traitor !'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54840746

[BoloOfEarth]

2 hours ago, Greywind said:

“Beginning Monday, our campaign will start prosecuting our case in court to ensure election laws are fully upheld and the rightful winner is seated."

 

Wait, is Trump saying that his campaign is going to make sure Biden is going to be president?  Wow, what a guy!

[Old Man]

1 hour ago, archer said:

 

I think a lot of people are ignoring the "only".

 

To make a higher minimum wage work in the way that people are wanting it to work, there needs to be changes to more things than only the minimum wage.

My understanding is that putting more money in the hands of people who actually spend it leads not to inflation, but to increased competition and job growth. After all, workers with more money can support more restaurants and other small businesses. As always, though, if there is evidence to the contrary I’d love to see it. 

[Ragitsu]

 

[death tribble]

Show Restraint on a 14 or less.  Rattle, rattle. 18. Oh well.

Ding Don the Witch is Dead ! 

 

[Cancer]

I admit I did not dare to hope.

[Greywind]

https://nypost.com/2020/11/06/aoc-facing-heat-for-wanting-to-archive-posts-by-trump-sycophants/

[tkdguy]

37 minutes ago, Cancer said:

I admit I did not dare to hope.

 

Same here, considering I've had my hopes dashed at the last minute way too often.

 

In 2016, I went into such a rut after the election since I spent a lot of campaigning for Hillary Clinton. I started campaigning for Joe Biden relatively late for that reason. I got the same feeling I had four years ago on November 3, after Trump seemed to be leading in all the battleground states. Even after Biden pulled ahead, I wasn't able to relax until today. I was cautiously optimistic, but I didn't dare become hopeful. Now it feels like my work has paid off.

 

Not everything paid off, though. I worked mainly with the Texas Democrats, writing letters and sending texts. I personally sent over 3,000 text messages that last week. I knew that turning Texas blue was a long shot, but it's still disappointing to fall short.

[unclevlad]

Mr. Biden,

 

Yes, I know your speech is important right now.

But I can't bring myself to watch.  Nothing personal;  I am simply burned out.  And wrung out.  

But there is now light at the end of the tunnel, and we have reason to believe it's not another train about to crash into us.

 

I'll listen...but later.

[unclevlad]

45 minutes ago, Greywind said:

https://nypost.com/2020/11/06/aoc-facing-heat-for-wanting-to-archive-posts-by-trump-sycophants/

 

So what?

I'm sure the sycophants will be upset.  Eek.  Ask me if I care about them.  
I might have a problem with privacy issues, if personal information is included...but the posts themselves are public speech and no right to privacy can be attached.

 

Deriding this because making a list is something a dictator would do is beyond laughable, considering Trump's actions.  Altho dictator might be less accurate than, say, mob boss.

[archer]

At this point, I'm more than reluctant to click on anything coming from the NY Post.

 

Maybe next year....

[Greywind]

27 minutes ago, archer said:

At this point, I'm more than reluctant to click on anything coming from the NY Post.

 

Maybe next year....

 

I can get it from somewhere else if you'd like 😛

 

[Pariah]

In one episode of Babylon 5, Captain John Sheridan pointed out that wars of independence are often followed by civil wars.

 

I'm not certain what the analog in this particular situation is, but I'm afraid it could be really unpleasant.

[Ragitsu]

This is a fantastic time to cut ties with idiotic and/or cruel people.

[unclevlad]

To top off a very nice day overall...

 

I'd ordered myself a new watch, just for grins, through a gray market dealer.  They'd said 3-5 weeks (gray market, that happens) but it'd shipped a few days ago.

It was scheduled to arrive Monday.

Just came in.

Happy, happy.  About to pour the wine......

[tkdguy]

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

 

So what?

I'm sure the sycophants will be upset.  Eek.  Ask me if I care about them.  
I might have a problem with privacy issues, if personal information is included...but the posts themselves are public speech and no right to privacy can be attached.

 

Deriding this because making a list is something a dictator would do is beyond laughable, considering Trump's actions.  Altho dictator might be less accurate than, say, mob boss.

 

Cult leader would be an even better term, considering the attitudes of the most diehard characters.

[Greywind]

7 minutes ago, tkdguy said:

 

Cult leader would be an even better term, considering the attitudes of the most diehard characters.

 

John McLane or Hans Gruber?