Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[TrickstaPriest]

17 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

But it's implicitly worrisome, IMO.  That group is radicalized.  If they succeed in their threats, that's bad.  If they don't, well, now you've got a radicalized group that will feel marginalized too.  THAT is Not Pretty.

 

First US president to deliberately try to start a civil war as part of his re-election campaign?

[archer]

13 minutes ago, TrickstaPriest said:

 

First US president to deliberately try to start a civil war as part of his re-election campaign?

 

The first one to do so as part of his re-election campaign.

[unclevlad]

I'm less worried about a civil war...violence, yes, but I don't anticipate anything sufficiently organized or scaled for me to call it a civil war.  Armed insurrection, yes.

 

I'm more worried about the ever-increasing, splintering polarization, in this new Disinformation Era where middle ground seems non-existent.  

[BoloOfEarth]

On 11/21/2020 at 1:14 AM, archer said:

I really don't read other people's blogs or link to them. But this one is just too good.

 

DO TRUMP’S LAWYERS KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING?

 

https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2020/11/do-trumps-lawyers-know-what-they-are-doing.php

 

 an affidavit signed by Russell Ramsland, a Texas resident who is an expert on cyber security. The affidavit was filed by Lin Wood in the Georgia lawsuit, but it relates entirely to Michigan, and it is a safe bet that it has been filed in one or more cases in that state as well.

The Ramsland affidavit is part of the Trump team’s case relating to Dominion. In paragraph 9, the affidavit states:

Based on the significant anomalies and red flags that we have observed, we believe there is a significant probability that election results have been manipulated within the Dominion/Premier system in Michigan.

...Here’s the problem: the townships and precincts listed in paragraphs 11 and 17 of the affidavit are not in Michigan. They are in Minnesota.

 

I just looked back at this.  I really think this should be looked into, even though it's Minnesota instead of Michigan.  What I find most ironic is the top ten out-of-whack precincts on their list:

• Benville Twp - 350% Votes / SOS Est. voters -- This township is part of Beltrami county... which voted for Trump 50.5% vs. Biden's 47.3%
• Monticello P-1 (144%) and Montcello P-2 (138%) as well as Albertville P-1 (136%) and Albertville P-2 (138%) -- These are all part of Wright County, which voted for Trump 63.1% vs. Biden's 34.5%
• Bradford Twp. (104%) -- part of Isanti county, which voted for Trump 68.3% vs. Biden's 29.5%
• Veldt Twp. (104%) and Wanger Twp (102%)-- both part of Marshall county, which voted for Trump 72.9% vs. Biden's 25.4%
• Champion Twp (104%) and Kent City (103%) -- both part of Wilkin county, which voted for Trump 67.9% vs. Biden's 29.9%

I could keep going, but I'm detecting a slight pattern here.

[Ragitsu]

 

[archer]

2 hours ago, BoloOfEarth said:

 

I just looked back at this.  I really think this should be looked into, even though it's Minnesota instead of Michigan.  What I find most ironic is the top ten out-of-whack precincts on their list:

• Benville Twp - 350% Votes / SOS Est. voters -- This township is part of Beltrami county... which voted for Trump 50.5% vs. Biden's 47.3%
• Monticello P-1 (144%) and Montcello P-2 (138%) as well as Albertville P-1 (136%) and Albertville P-2 (138%) -- These are all part of Wright County, which voted for Trump 63.1% vs. Biden's 34.5%
• Bradford Twp. (104%) -- part of Isanti county, which voted for Trump 68.3% vs. Biden's 29.5%
• Veldt Twp. (104%) and Wanger Twp (102%)-- both part of Marshall county, which voted for Trump 72.9% vs. Biden's 25.4%
• Champion Twp (104%) and Kent City (103%) -- both part of Wilkin county, which voted for Trump 67.9% vs. Biden's 29.9%

I could keep going, but I'm detecting a slight pattern here.

 

At this point, if those numbers are coming from the Trump lawsuit rather than directly from the state, I wouldn't trust they're accurate to start with. (I'd put some sort of emoticon there but I couldn't find one which denotes that I think the president and those who work directly for him are that totally incompetent as to be able to copy numbers down correctly.)

 

But if the numbers are accurate, yeah, they should definitely be looked at IMO. I've always thought all potential vote fraud ought to automatically be seriously investigated whether it is enough to turn the outcome of an election or not. 

 

Unfortunately, our system depends on the losing candidate kicking up enough serious fuss that law enforcement is eventually brought in to look at what happened.

 

Trump, being the losing candidate, isn't being serious about it. His complaint was brought in Georgia rather than Minnesota where the suspicious stuff happened. He won't complain asking Minnesota to look into it because if something did happen, it was likely to his benefit.

 

Likewise, the Republicans in the state legislature won't push to look into it because the fraud probably helped their candidates in downballot races.

 

The Biden campaign won't push to look into it because he won the state and looking into legit fraud would undermine his claim to have won. The Democrats in the state legislature are in the same boat.

 

No one outside the candidates themselves or their political parties will be found to have standing to be able to bring a successful lawsuit either to contest the election or to force the state to conduct an investigation because courts have ruled over and over that voters aren't affected by vote fraud in such a way that would give them standing in lawsuits.

 

That's the main reason, in my opinion, that vote fraud is never found in this country. Not because some level of it doesn't exist but because candidates and their parties have no incentive to look at specific instances and voters can't legally force them to look.

 

The system depends on the losing candidate to be willing to endanger his future political career by appearing to be a sore loser and relentlessly pushing for an investigation of vote fraud while every politician in the state tries to talk him out of it.

[Badger]

10 hours ago, TrickstaPriest said:

 

It's this pattern to begin with why I deeply hate the Trump movement.  Slavish devotion to a man who threatens entire states (New York, California) that he is supposed to represent.

I agree about the movement, though I understand the people, a lot of them have been absolutely alienated by both parties. And they metaphorically spat on by both parties in general, and liberals in particular.

 

My feelings are also a bit mixed on the other side, being an independent. After 4 years of "the resistance" everytime I hear Biden call for unity, my ears want to bleed. It feels ridiculously hollow even for the Trump era.

 

I am ok with the result, but how we got there is a large part of my political frustration I am dealing with at the moment. To be honest.

 

I am pretty much just trying to shut down the political part of my brain for awhile (probably 6 months at least).  

[TrickstaPriest]

7 minutes ago, Badger said:

I am ok with the result, but how we got there is a large part of my political frustration I am dealing with at the moment. To be honest.

 

I am pretty much just trying to shut down the political part of my brain for awhile (probably 6 months at least).  

 

I'm sorry you feel spit on, for what it's worth.

 

And yeah.  The last few years have been particularly harrowing for some of us.  I've been essentially in self lockdown since late January, so this constant lockdown has been taking a toll on me.

[unclevlad]

Actually, it might be in Trump's longer-term strategic interests to challenge in *any* county, if the numbers weren't cooked to begin with.  It doesn't matter if it'd cost him votes;  it continues, and if he wins, amplifies, the narrative that elections are rampant with fraud.  That'll be the takeaway...not that the fraud helped him.  The point alone...not the beneficiary...can be used in the state houses to pass more voting restrictions.  You can bet that's going to be a high priority at the state levels...along, of course, with gerrymandering once the census is declared official.

 

 

[Old Man]

1 hour ago, Badger said:

I am pretty much just trying to shut down the political part of my brain for awhile (probably 6 months at least).  

 

You might be in the wrong thread for that.    I share your fatigue, though. 

[Old Man]

11 hours ago, unclevlad said:

I'm less worried about a civil war...violence, yes, but I don't anticipate anything sufficiently organized or scaled for me to call it a civil war.  Armed insurrection, yes.

 

I'm more worried about the ever-increasing, splintering polarization, in this new Disinformation Era where middle ground seems non-existent.  

 

I'm not worried about a civil war so much as a Reichstag Fire incident followed by a fascist takeover attempt by the party that currently controls the White House, Senate, SCOTUS, and DOJ, and just installed four toadies to run the Pentagon. 

[unclevlad]

I'm not worried about a fascist-like takeover because Trump doesn't have the support of the top military leaders...rather the opposite.  But you did say "try to"...I'm not gonna say I think it's impossible, but it's unlikely.  And that level of tyrannic action would generate massive pushback from the states as well.

[TrickstaPriest]

Try to, and an appeal to people like the group in Texas that's clearly stated their willingness to participate.  Or the sheriff in... Arkansas?  Who was tweeting that liberals should be bullied, abused, even killed.  The person who would be in-part responsible for investigating the murders of liberals, you know, advocating for violence and murder of liberals.

 

There's some interesting documentation of left-wing and right-wing violence in fascist states, and how right-wing offenders are often treated to much lighter sentences (like, months for murder), versus heavy sentences and brutal treatment (decades).

 

It's quite possible Texas or Arkansas will become that in enforcement... if they aren't already.

[Cancer]

See a book titled Terror on Highway 59 for that sort of thing back in the '70s and '80s, though it was less obviously political.  Still, word was they targeted cars with rock radio station stickers on them.

[archer]

On 11/22/2020 at 12:39 PM, TrickstaPriest said:

 

It's this pattern to begin with why I deeply hate the Trump movement.  Slavish devotion to a man who threatens entire states (New York, California) that he is supposed to represent.

 

It's frustrating to me that I started trying to warn people of this in 2015 after I realized Trump was both a con artist and a fascist.

 

Agonizing. 

 

Though I'll admit that it devolved more rapidly than I expected with huge swaths of the country eagerly embracing....

[TrickstaPriest]

Just now, archer said:

Though I'll admit that it devolved more rapidly than I expected with huge swaths of the country eagerly embracing....

 

As stated by others, people think that he represents him, and this is the 'response' to a 'fascist state spying on them'.

 

Which is why the (apparent) lie about them illegally fixing the election is working on so many people.  It plays into that narrative.

 

Without mentioning all the legal fixing going on by both parties for decades now.  That wouldn't serve that narrative at all.

 

I don't know a thing about 'spygate', but if it's true several politicians should be in serious trouble.  Though few were punished the last time this happened.  See Nixon.

 

The 'acceptable response' seems to be the general destruction/replacement of the entire federal government, elevating the presidency to complete controller of the executive branch, outright ignoring the current electoral process, the ability to create new laws via executive order to utterly trivialize congress, and to suggest the threatening/harm of any dissenters to this idea, up to and including withholding federal aid from whole states.

 

That's why I am relatively unsympathetic to the movement.

[BoloOfEarth]

Michigan's state board has certified the election results.  I'm breathing a huge sigh of relief. 

[Starlord]

164 business leaders urge Trump to begin presidential transition for the sake of the country

[unclevlad]

56 minutes ago, Starlord said:

164 business leaders urge Trump to begin presidential transition for the sake of the country

 

Now if they also start pushing McConnell, Graham, etc....

STOP THE PRESSES!!!!!!

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2020/11/23/us/joe-biden-trump?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage
 

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[TrickstaPriest]

55 minutes ago, Starlord said:

164 business leaders urge Trump to begin presidential transition for the sake of the country

 

One of the big things with this is, unlike 2000, Bush v Gore, we didn't have literally thousands of protesters in multiple cities fighting even the concept of losing the state.  Some people were upset, but this is a big scale conflict that won't go away easily.  Trump could lead it away, but he's essentially (accidentally or on purpose) taking as much of the country hostage as he can.

[BoloOfEarth]

1 minute ago, unclevlad said:

 

Now if they also start pushing McConnell, Graham, etc....

... off a cliff?

[unclevlad]

So I don't normally do it til after Thanksgiving, but...tonight...my Christmas lights are all on.

 

 

[Old Man]

4 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

Now if they also start pushing McConnell, Graham, etc....

STOP THE PRESSES!!!!!!

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2020/11/23/us/joe-biden-trump?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage
 

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Oh, are they done destroying evidence already? Thought it would take way longer than three weeks. 

[archer]

1 hour ago, Old Man said:

Oh, are they done destroying evidence already? Thought it would take way longer than three weeks. 

 

I was going to give this a "haha" response but since that's exactly what's happening, I wouldn't want my response to mislead anyone.

 

Did I ever get around to posting the Politico story about how Trump physically rips up every piece of paper which is handed to him and throws it either into the trash or onto the floor?

 

Since by law such documents have to be preserved, the government is paying several people ($62,000 a year each) and a large part of their job has become to reassemble shreds of paper and to scotch tape them back together into documents and put them in clear sleeves for preservation.

 

When Trump found out about it, he tried to fire everyone in the office. When told he couldn't fire everyone because by law presidential documents have to be preserved, he fired two of the four people who work in the preservation of records department.

[archer]

Trump withdraws US from the Open Skies treaty.

 

That's a post-Cold War treaty among 35 countries including the US and Russia which allows them to fly unarmed surveillance flights over each other's territory at short notice.

 

It's designed to keep countries from being able to build secret missile bases like those which led to the Cuban missiles crisis. Or from being able to have troops buildups for invasions like Russia invading the Ukraine, without anyone noticing.

 

It also allows the 35 countries to share the intelligence they gather from such overflights with each other.

 

The way that this has worked in practice is that the US has watched Russia and shared the intelligence with the other countries so that Russia can't, for example, mount a surprise invasion of Latvia, Lithuania, or Estonia.

 

To put a cherry on top, the surveillance has been done by the US using two specialized C-135b spy planes loaded down with tech. Trump is in the process of trashing those airplanes and the technology they contain because they're supposedly obsolete and additionally unneeded since we're no longer in the treaty. 

 

Back in the summer, the Trump administration killed the program which was supposed to come up with replacements for those two airplanes.

 

So by the time Biden comes into office, the airplanes will be no more and there's no program existing to replace them. Even if Biden wants to re-enter the treaty, there's no guarantee that Russia would immediately accept that the US is allowed to fly over their territory on short notice once again.

 

Trump is basically throwing the doors open and is inviting Putin to invade any or all of the countries which were formerly in the USSR and has robbed NATO of the intelligence they'd need to respond to Russian troop buildups or try diplomatic channels before a Russian invasion starts.

 

Unfortunately the Wall Street Journal article which contains most of the information is behind a paywall. Here's a partial look at the story:

 

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/11/trump-quits-treaty-allowing-us-to-fly-reconnaissance-missions-over-russia-will-destroy-planes/

 

“We’ve started liquidating the equipment,” a senior U.S. official told the Wall Street Journal. “Other countries can come purchase or just take the airframes. They are really old and cost-prohibitive for us to maintain. We don’t have a use for them anymore.”

 

I really try to not rant about treason, the need for prosecution, the need to slow Trump down by impeaching him now, the need to invoke the 25th amendment, and all the rest. 

 

But it is very, very difficult at times.