Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[TrickstaPriest]

I dunno if that'll happen or not.

 

I'm still hearing lots of talk about massive overvoting in counties and 600k votes in Pennsylvania from the people I know.  No idea what to make of the progress of those legal arguments, but I at least shot down their talk of affidavits.  Not cause affidavits are bad, but affidavits that they haven't confirmed are valid are a problem... that's why they were tossed to begin with.

 

Like, at minimum you have to physically meet the person claiming it.  At least to confirm they exist.

 

Still a huge argument of why mail in ballots are terrible.  Lots of stuff on why they are rife with fraud, just the act of mailing them out.  I get what they are trying to say, but there's very clear, easy, and blatant ways we can avoid those problems too...

 

Mail in ballots are 100% the new political election law battlefield.  Now that gerrymandering isn't enough.

[Old Man]

It's not that gerrymandering isn't enough, it's that it's no longer in contention.  The GOP won control of the legislatures in virtually every state where redistricting will occur before 2024, and the newly packed SCOTUS will let them gerrymander all they want.

[Cygnia]

Trump declares Twitter national security threat after #DiaperDon trends following meltdown at miniature table

[unclevlad]

Well, specifically, their "Trending!" indicators are:

https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-twitter-false-trends-section-230-national-security-conservative-discrimination-1550687

 

But it's delicious that he rants about the very vehicles he's used so heavily.

[TrickstaPriest]

It still bothers me how many people are fully committed to the idea that there's rampant election fraud.

 

I hear a lot about the 600k votes like I said before, where they "appeared out of nowhere".

 

And a lot about how impossible it is to have so many counties reporting 105% and so on of mail-ins, especially when voting rates are always so low.

[unclevlad]

1 hour ago, TrickstaPriest said:

It still bothers me how many people are fully committed to the idea that there's rampant election fraud.

 

I hear a lot about the 600k votes like I said before, where they "appeared out of nowhere".

 

And a lot about how impossible it is to have so many counties reporting 105% and so on of mail-ins, especially when voting rates are always so low.

 

This is an interesting article on the roots of all of this.  
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/26/opinion/republican-disinformation.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

 

Fundamentally, it's the cultural *and economic* schism between rural and urban America.  There are secondary aspects, too;  there was an article that the stock market gains have skipped over millenials...because they're still buying down debt, or saving for family, or what-have-you.  So one can argue it's connected to the growing wealth disparities, and the perception that the mainstream media is tied to the privileged classes.

[DShomshak]

In his Nov 24 NYTimes column, Bret Stephens suggests the Trumpies know perfectly well their legal challenges are nonsense and will fail; but that's not a bug, it's a feature in building their "dolchstosselegende" -- the "backstab legend." Refers back to Weimar Republic Germany, and how its political enemies undercut it with the conspiracy theory that Germany lost WW1 through the treachery of generals and politicians now prominent in the Republic. They Trumpies are no longer running against Democrats; they are running against democracy, law and government itself. This is of course enormously dangerous, and bespeaks malign intent.

 

Dean Shomshak

[TrickstaPriest]

13 minutes ago, DShomshak said:

This is of course enormously dangerous, and bespeaks malign intent

 

Problem is I know a lot of people who are committed to the idea that it IS stolen.  If you want to actually avoid it, it's to break this brainwashing.

 

But, to be blunt, that's something their party has been kings of for longer than I've been alive.

 

Hell they got them fleeing off digital platforms and self isolating, like any other cult.

 

(We can talk about media control and my party too, but that's a fairly recent phenomena)

[TrickstaPriest]

That's more or less why I'm posting 'the latest' in what they believe.

 

1) The lower court justices are all political hacks denying them for political reasons.  The Supreme Courts should be the ones deciding it (and its apparently great that his cases are getting through there)

2) 600k votes appeared out of nowhere for Biden in one of the states (Pennsylvania or Michigan, I forget)

3) Mail in votes are largely fraud.  Mail in should be less than 0.5% of the total vote

4) Numerous counties have reported thousands of extra votes beyond their population, let alone beyond their regular voting rates.  This obviously proves the system is against Trump and they are cheating.

 

Try combating all that

[Lord Liaden]

And almost none of it is true. There's no evidence, it's hyperbole or outright falsehood. But they want it to be true, hence they've decided that it is true.

[TrickstaPriest]

41 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

And almost none of it is true. There's no evidence, it's hyperbole or outright falsehood. But they want it to be true, hence they've decided that it is true.

 

At least with #3, I've gotten the concession that it's not necessarily rife with fraud this time (although they say all evidence and affidavits certainly say it is), but they say it should be done away with anyway.

[BoloOfEarth]

7 hours ago, TrickstaPriest said:

 

At least with #3, I've gotten the concession that it's not necessarily rife with fraud this time (although they say all evidence and affidavits certainly say it is), but they say it should be done away with anyway.

 

Point out to them that doing away with mail-in votes would mean that our men and women serving overseas or away from home would be denied the vote.  Also the elderly unable to easily get to polling places.  Two groups that (they believe at least) are mainly in their camp.

 

Though really, I find that it's pointless to talk to these kind of people.  Their minds are made up, and no amount of logic, evidence, or explanation will suffice to change that.

[TrickstaPriest]

5 hours ago, BoloOfEarth said:

Though really, I find that it's pointless to talk to these kind of people.  Their minds are made up, and no amount of logic, evidence, or explanation will suffice to change that.

 

Yes, but if you don't get through to them that the election wasn't stolen, the future of this country is going to be short.  As explained by DShomshak:

 

14 hours ago, DShomshak said:

The Trumpies are no longer running against Democrats; they are running against democracy, law and government itself. This is of course enormously dangerous, and bespeaks malign intent

 

[Badger]

Anyway, just a heads up, I might be around much for a month or so. Going to spend on some projects (gaming and otherwise) I have put for forever. Seems a perfect time, I need some time off from reality as much as possible, to get a rest, and freshen my perspective.

Just now, Badger said:

Anyway, just a heads up, I might be around much for a month or so. Going to spend on some projects (gaming and otherwise) I have put for forever. Seems a perfect time, I need some time off from reality as much as possible, to get a rest, and freshen my perspective.

Well, planning on Monday, my next day off, to have that full day for a good start you might say, so I may pop in tomorrow

[dmjalund]

Why are you quoting yourself?

[Old Man]

You have to admit, he's pretty quotable.

[unclevlad]

9 hours ago, TrickstaPriest said:

Yes, but if you don't get through to them that the election wasn't stolen, the future of this country is going to be short.  As explained by DShomshak:

 

 

It's more basic than that.  The stolen election is simply *one* of the narratives.  They have to be re-engaged more basically.  The election is simply the next in line, after climate change is all BS, coronavirus isn't all that bad, etc. etc.  The urban/rural worldviews are probably as diametrically opposite as the black/white perceptions.

[Pariah]

15 hours ago, BoloOfEarth said:

Though really, I find that it's pointless to talk to these kind of people.  Their minds are made up, and no amount of logic, evidence, or explanation will suffice to change that.

 

"When others do a foolish thing, you should tell them it is a foolish thing. They can still continue to do it, but at least the truth is where it needs to be."

 

~Satai Dukhat, Babylon 5

[unclevlad]

13 minutes ago, Pariah said:

 

"When others do a foolish thing, you should tell them it is a foolish thing. They can still continue to do it, but at least the truth is where it needs to be."

 

~Satai Dukhat, Babylon 5

 

"But what is truth?  Is truth unchanging law?  We both have truths, are mine the same as yours?"

Pilate to Jesus in Jesus Christ Superstar, the Trial before Pilate

 

This is the root problem.  You've merely increased their antagonism because their truths are not the same as yours.

[Pariah]

I would say, rather, that their perception of truth is not the same as mine. But your point is not amiss.

 

Having said that, there are some things that are true and some things that are false. That there was widespread voter fraud in the 2020 election, at the presidential level or otherwise, is not true.

[DShomshak]

I also will not be here much, if at all, for a while. My mother is in the hospital, and I need to keep the phone line clear for a call I hope does not come.

 

Relevant to the topic, I cannot even be there with her because Certain People made this pandemic much worse than it might have been. For which I will never forgive them.

 

Dean Shomshak

[BoloOfEarth]

2 hours ago, DShomshak said:

I also will not be here much, if at all, for a while. My mother is in the hospital, and I need to keep the phone line clear for a call I hope does not come.

 

Relevant to the topic, I cannot even be there with her because Certain People made this pandemic much worse than it might have been. For which I will never forgive them.

 

Dean Shomshak

 

My thoughts and prayers are with you and your mother, Dean.  I hope all goes better than you fear, and that the phone call you're dreading doesn't come. 

[BoloOfEarth]

On 11/28/2020 at 9:05 AM, BoloOfEarth said:

Though really, I find that it's pointless to talk to these kind of people.  Their minds are made up, and no amount of logic, evidence, or explanation will suffice to change that.

 

13 hours ago, Pariah said:

 

"When others do a foolish thing, you should tell them it is a foolish thing. They can still continue to do it, but at least the truth is where it needs to be."

 

~Satai Dukhat, Babylon 5

 

I find it very amusing that I'm quoting you (quoting Twain) back to you. 

 

On 11/25/2020 at 11:42 PM, Pariah said:

 

As Mark Twain is reported to have said, "Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." 

 

[Pariah]

It's not without irony, true. I guess that might be an indication just how screwed up this whole situation is.

[archer]

Instead of paying for a full recount in Wisconsin, the Trump campaign cheaped out and paid $3 million for a partial recount in only Milwaukee where the campaign contended that the counting was flawed. Turns out the counting was flawed, to a certain extent.

 

At the end of the recount, Biden gained 257 votes and Trump added 125.

 

Before the recount, Biden had 317,270 votes in Milwaukee County to Trump's 134,357. The recount boosted the totals to 317,527 for Biden and 134,482 for Trump.

 

Maybe Trump would like to pay for recounts in other urban areas where Biden was already expected to do well?

 

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/11/27/milwaukee-county-recount-wraps-up-biden-adding-his-margin/6428186002/