Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[Lord Liaden]

I think Trump will be remembered as a sort of American Bonnie Prince Charlie.

[unclevlad]

Until we to the next objection...which will happen, it's believed, at Pennsylvania if not earlier...

 

They're following a rigid, totally formalized procedure.  Pence makes a set announcement that the cert looks OK...which takes about 15 seconds.  Then one of the congressmen reads the results, which takes another 20 seconds.

 

So!!!!!  Georgia just came through.  70-odd Representatives tried to object.  Rattled off the usual BS.  Pence asks, do you have a Senator's signature?  Spokesman says, well we did, but they have all withdrawn.  BOING!!!!!  Round of applause through the chamber.

 

The strict formality is just making sure that every i is properly dotted, every t is crossed, and that there can be no argument about this stage.  It's something of a lesson about the nature of serious, consequential legal proceedings, tho.  

Michigan results objected to...same result.  No Senator signed on.

 

EDIT:  55 House members objected to Nevada, for...no real grounds stated.  No Senator signed on.  This one sounded specious.

[Pariah]

I have to say I'm never much of a fan of the White House, the House of Representatives, and the Senate all in the hands of the same political party. I think there is potential for abuse of checks and balances when that's the case. I know it doesn't always happen that way, but I'm always concerned that it might.

 

Having said that, I can't say I'm saddened at the thought of Mitch McConnell with the title of House Minority Leader. He has been an obstruction to getting anything done for far too long.

[unclevlad]

And....boom.  Hawley objects to Pennsylvania.

 

Round 2 of the charade.  12:15 Eastern time.

 

The expectation is, the debate in the Senate will be non-existent.  The vote won't take terribly long.  BUT, the House probably won't.  Even at that, there's just procedural stuff.  Because of the pandemic, most of the House members were not on the floor;  they were in their offices.  So they have to be called back.  The Senators have to be gathered too.  That's like stopping to refill your tank on a road trip...it doesn't matter that it's literally just at the ramp, it *still* costs you 10 minutes.  Presuming no bathroom break or "quick swing" into the quickie mart to get a Slurpee.  That's another 10.  Oh, and the House vote for the Arizona objection took a good 15 minutes.  

 

Oh yeah.  Pence calls the Senate to order, they read the objection, Pence recognizes McConnell, McConnell waives his time.  BOOM.  Straight to roll call.  Looks to be the same as Arizona probably.  Now we'll have to see what the House does.

And then you have the whole procedural issues, and regathering back in the House.

 

So I'm thinking this won't be over til....3 AM or so.

 

A truth here, tho...there's a very good chance, in my mind, that the insurgent intrusion into the Capitol actually did not cost that much time...because it probably did quash the Georgia and Michigan objections and debate.  We'd be looking at 3 hours apiece if we were lucky, I think.

 

Sonofa.....................

 

Reports now that 3 people died from medical emergencies during this.  I haven't seen details, but this could readily mean that even those who never considered going inside, get more active blame.  (They get passive blame for setting up the situation, even if you accept that it wasn't representative of Trump supporters in general.  Doesn't absolve them entirely.)

 

[tkdguy]

Now there are reports of some police helping the protesters, opening barricades and even taking selfies with them. When I first heard this claim on TV, I had to verify this online. To be fair, more officers did their job. However, there should have been more preparation, and this was clearly a failure in security procedure.

 

Now the death toll has risen to four people.

 

Why does this get to me so badly? As Former President Bush said, this is how a banana republic disputes elections. I have lived in a dictatorship. My family came to the USA to get away from all that. Now it seems the current administration has been acting the way dictators do. It's pretty overwhelming.

[unclevlad]

Those reports go back a few hours, if you've been watching far too long like me.

 

I want evidence on these before I lock into any conclusions.  However, the failure of preparation is clearly going to call for serious investigation.  The rally was known to happen;  having it spill over to a violent breach of the Capitol, perhaps not...but the potential, absolutely so.  

 

CNN is skipping most of the House debate altogether;  the brief period where MSNBC showed the debate, was a total waste of time, as it was nothing more than the rants that've been spewed and utterly refuted...or repeats of those refutations.  Unfortunately, this is giving their talking heads room to rant.  I can mostly agree with Don Lemon, but his take is skewed IMO.  MSNBC has an anti-FB guy just going off in a very self-serving, circular manner.  The debate should be over soon, but there might still be another half hour.  THEN the vote...and we'll have to see if that runs quickly, or whether a faction chooses to take their sweet time.  Then get the joint session back together.

THEN they can finish the roll call.

[unclevlad]

MSNBC correspondent is making a point about the charge of treason.  Such a charge requires aiding and abetting a country against which an active declaration of war exists, according to her.  And that sounds right to me.  So that's why I haven't supported that word.

YAY...12:28 here, 2:28 East Coast.  Pelosi tries for a voice vote...that was shot down, but that's no surprise.  The House, for clear social distancing reasons, cycles through members in groups, so it takes a while.  They allot 15 minutes on the clock;  the Arizona vote took quite a bit longer.

 

Do we have any other poker fans?  Remember the 2018 WSOP Main Event heads-up match?  I do.  I gave up as it showed no sign of letting up...only to wake up relatively early to see who one.  Only to see...IT WAS STILL GOING!!!!  Til Tony Miles finally, IMO, lost it...but it was after many, many hours of play, and major fatigue was obvious on both players.

 

That's what this is feeling like.

[unclevlad]

3:27.  Pence has gaveled the joint session back in.  The Pennsylvania objection's gone.  

 

3:30...Pence is forgetting the "Hearing None" part of the formula a few times, but no one cares at this hour I suspect.  It has been a very, very long day.

 

3:32...and with the Vermont votes, Biden now has 271!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

And anything from here on out would be totally specious.  5 left.

 

And...I kinda figured it might happen.  Wisconsin is the last objection.  No Senator signed on.  Pence actually handled everything with class and dignity;  he completely stuck to form.

 

And with Wyoming, it's done.  The count is over.  Biden is declared the winner of the election.  Pence has called the chaplain of the Senate for a closing prayer.  And the joint session is dissolved.

 

I am very happy that this phase is now over.  

 

MAJOR NEWS!!!!!!

OMG.  TRUMP CONCEDES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  "There will be an orderly transition on Jan. 20th."   He also asserts "greatest first term in history" but that's pure Trump.  And hey, he's been known to recant before...but still....

Granted that I think he's lost ALL his supporters, except maybe a few of the House reps.  Even the Senators pushing the objections aren't on his side, they're trying to advance their own agenda.  

EDIT:  And with that, I call it a night.  About 13 hours of this nightmare, but one I am reasonably glad I followed.

 

Stay well, everyone, and breathe slowly and carefully.  The bastards can get you down;  don't let them keep you down.  Good night, all.

 

 

[Starlord]

Wouldn't really call that a concession....

[Starlord]

[Starlord]

The symbol of traitors and racism held proudly in the US Capitol.

 

[Cygnia]

[tkdguy]

Check out Joe Scarborough's rant about the failure of the Capitol Police during yesterday's riot. I won't post a link because he dropped the f-bomb during his show, but he's asking a lot of the questions I'm asking. 

 

I don't think I've been this mad since 9/11. This will also leave a scar on the nation, but it will be deeper because it is a self-inflicted wound. 

 

And despite Trump's comments about having a peaceful transfer of power, I suspect he still has some mischief in mind. And the damage has already been done. 

 

[Cancer]

Before the US entered WW1, there was a conversation between the German foreign minister and James Gerard, the US ambassador to Imperial Germany, where the foreign minister threatened the ambassador with half a million armed German-Americans in the US who would carry out a violent uprising if the US entered the war against Germany.

 

Reflexively, Gerard replied, "In that case, we have half a million lampposts to hang them from."

 

I am willing to allow the orange tub of lard to crawl off to his bunker with his PPK and do as his spiritual role model did when reality finally overrode what his toadies could tell him.

 

And that's where my thinking is now. 

[TrickstaPriest]

1 hour ago, tkdguy said:

And despite Trump's comments about having a peaceful transfer of power, I suspect he still has some mischief in mind. And the damage has already been done. 

 

 

I literally doubt he has the willpower to prevent himself from causing as much damage to his perceived enemies (read, everyone who doesn't adore him) as opportunistically possible.  Only his sheer inability to make preparations and coordinate with people in a way that reasonably asserts other people exist is preventing him from doing so.

[Starlord]

Looks like Schumer's calling for the 25th amendment....

[unclevlad]

Yesterday was full of shocking, disgusting events.

 

But the worst, for me, was the parade of House members promoting multiple objections to the election results *after* the invasion.  I believe the final count was 137 House Republicans who voted to sustain the objection to the Pennsylvania electors.  That's a major warning shot across the bow, to me, saying they'll be as obstinate and obstructionist as the rules of the House allow, through the 2022 election.  It's also a major warning that Trumpism isn't going away at all;  that's just too much widespread support.

 

In the Senate, I suspect that Cruz and Hawley are likely to be the point men on things like impeding nominees, if nothing else.  The fact that most Senate Republicans rejected the push to overturn the election is encouraging, but Cruz and Hawley have shown they'll pander to Trump's base, and there's no reason to think they'll slow down.

[TrickstaPriest]

1 minute ago, unclevlad said:

But the worst, for me, was the parade of House members promoting multiple objections to the election results *after* the invasion.  I believe the final count was 137 House Republicans who voted to sustain the objection to the Pennsylvania electors.  That's a major warning shot across the bow, to me, saying they'll be as obstinate and obstructionist as the rules of the House allow, through the 2022 election.  It's also a major warning that Trumpism isn't going away at all;  that's just too much widespread support.

 

 

Exactly.

 

They know/think the US is prime for collapse now, and they want to be in prime position for feasting on its 'corpse'.

[Pariah]

[Pariah]

53 minutes ago, Starlord said:

Looks like Schumer's calling for the 25th amendment....

 

It would be political suicide for Pence to do this. He'd never get elected anywhere ever again.

 

But...Gerald Ford knew it would be political suicide to pardon Richard Nixon. He did it anyway, believing (rightly, I feel) that it was necessary to heal the nation's wounds and allow the country to move on and start rebuilding.

 

Whether Pence is up for something like that, I guess time will tell.

[unclevlad]

We made the save.

 

But barely.  

 

Problem is, this is a poison save, and you have to save *twice*.  That second save still looks dicey.

[Pariah]

Heh. "Dicey".

[aylwin13]

7 minutes ago, Pariah said:

 

It would be political suicide for Pence to do this. He'd never get elected anywhere ever again.

 

But...Gerald Ford knew it would be political suicide to pardon Richard Nixon. He did it anyway, believing (rightly, I feel) that it was necessary to heal the nation's wounds and allow the country to move on and start rebuilding.

 

Whether Pence is up for something like that, I guess time will tell.

 

CNN is reporting that Pence’s family was on Capitol Hill for the proceedings, and that no one checked on him/them while the mob was heading down the street. It looks like T**** might have been tossing Pence to the lions for not overturning the election for him. Pence might decide that that is sufficient reason to do it anyway.

[Old Man]

Found footage of the shooting of the woman, who was a Trump supporter.  A Secret Service agent clearly warned her (and the mob she was with) not to move past a barrier in the Capitol.  She promptly climbed the barrier. 

 

Meanwhile, the strange passivity of the official response during the attack have convinced European authorities that this was a for-real coup attempt, organized by the current occupant of the White House, with the support of certain law enforcement officials who deliberately left the Capitol undefended.

[unclevlad]

9 minutes ago, Pariah said:

 

It would be political suicide for Pence to do this. He'd never get elected anywhere ever again.

 

 

It can equally be argued that he will never get elected again if he doesn't try.  It might not work;  it's not just Pence who'll make the call in the end.