csyphrett Posted November 7, 2016 Report Share Posted November 7, 2016 There was that one guy who took home twenty years of NSA secrets. They weren't going to charge him until they found hacking tools that had been sold on the internet CES Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranxerox Posted November 7, 2016 Report Share Posted November 7, 2016 (edited) That implies Hillary was either ignorant of the rules, or willfully ignored them. Neither is exactly a positive for someone running for high office. And not changed by whether or not any harm was actually done. The thing that bothers me to add on to that. If this had been nearly any other government employee would intent or ignorance matter? Not that I expected anything to come of it (I figured her getting charged with anything at below 1 percent). But, no matter how I look at this, I can only see it as her getting the benefit of the doubt that few if any other government employees would have gotten. Yet, given her position, should have been held to a higher level than your average gov't employee. There was that one guy who took home twenty years of NSA secrets. They weren't going to charge him until they found hacking tools that had been sold on the internet CES Use of private email servers by government officials has been an ongoing problem, but not one that has a history of resulting in criminal charges being filed. It is more the sort of thing that generally in either a write-up or a dismissal, but not criminal charges. As for holding people at the top to a higher standard, do you really think that your boss much less the company's CEO can't get away with stuff that would get you sacked? If you do, well sorry that is not how the world works. High status, really hard to replace individuals are given more leeway that regular working stiffs*. That is just a fact of life. The only special treatment that Secretary Clinton received that any other high ranking official would have received also, it that the FBI would not have been brought in to investigate anyone else. They would have received a departmental slap on the wrist and that would have been the end of the story. Secretary Clinton has said that she was wrong and apologized. Now I know that someone people will look at this email thing and somehow find it equivalent to all the bad stuff that Trump has said and done over the years combined. Personally I don't see the smallest shred of equivalency. * - I'm not sure that this is not as it should be. Perhaps due to the greater and broader responsibilities of their jobs these individual simply need more power of discretion in the performance of there jobs than people whose responsibilities are more narrow. Edited November 7, 2016 by Ranxerox tkdguy, Netzilla and Old Man 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted November 7, 2016 Report Share Posted November 7, 2016 The thing that bothers me to add on to that. If this had been nearly any other government employee would intent or ignorance matter? Of course it would. From my time in government contracting, people mishandling classified information happens--not all the time, but often enough. Laptops get left in cars and stolen. Sensitive information gets inadvertently pasted into an email on NIPR. The wrong folder goes into a regular wastebasket. The usual penalty for any of this is shame and ridicule, perhaps a reprimand in especially egregious cases. But if everyone who made a mistake with classified information was fired or in jail, the government would be really, really shorthanded. That implies Hillary was either ignorant of the rules, or willfully ignored them. Neither is exactly a positive for someone running for high office. And not changed by whether or not any harm was actually done. If you read Politico's overall account of what happened with that server, it's a pretty textbook case of a totally nontechnical executive not understanding what is happening in her IT department. It's actually kind of boring since I've experienced almost exactly this multiple times in my career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted November 7, 2016 Report Share Posted November 7, 2016 http://www.cbsnews.com/news/washington-state-electors-on-the-fence-about-voting-for-hillary-clinton/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aylwin13 Posted November 7, 2016 Report Share Posted November 7, 2016 No matter which one gets elected, I will hate them. Don't hate the figurehead, hate the system. The bipartisan system (us vs. them) full of career politicians working for themselves and their contributors (instead of us, the constituents) is the real problem. Netzilla 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted November 7, 2016 Report Share Posted November 7, 2016 Don't hate the figurehead, hate the system. The bipartisan system (us vs. them) full of career politicians working for themselves and their contributors (instead of us, the constituents) is the real problem. Tempting to quote Marx here: "The executive of the modern state is but a committee for managing the common affairs of the whole bourgeoisie." In other words, the loyalty to "their contributors" is systematic, and loyalty to "the constituents" is essentially opportunist and demagogic. Trump pretty much epitomises "demagogue", and Clinton has "opportunist" down to a fine art. Nolgroth 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted November 7, 2016 Report Share Posted November 7, 2016 And what does she do with her opportunities? Health care for kids. Narrowing the gender gap. Maybe raise the minimum wage and fix Obamacare. Even if she is Machiavellian, her ends are hard to argue with. What does the other candidate do with his opportunities? Check out his tax returns. tkdguy, Twilight, Ranxerox and 3 others 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted November 7, 2016 Report Share Posted November 7, 2016 Clinton has supported every US war since Vietnam, including while she was Secretary of State, which is not an armchair position. Even with Vietnam, she was noted more for trying to stop anti-war protests than anything else. So: warmonger. OK, wars happen. But someone who is all "I've never seen a war I didn't like" isn't a safe pair of hands. She was presumably OK with what her husband did during his Presidency, so there's a lot of extra track record there. Economic neo-liberal. Corporate tax cutter. Shifter of wealth from poor people to rich people. All of which under cuts any rhetoric about health care for kids and the gender gap. The reality is that these areas are likely to go backwards during her presidency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted November 7, 2016 Report Share Posted November 7, 2016 I actually don't think Hillary's politics are necessarily that close to Bill's at all, especially if you look at her voting record as New York's senator. Regardless, even if health care, wars, and the gender gap "go backwards" during her presidency, they sure as hell won't go as far backwards as they would under Trump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wcw43921 Posted November 7, 2016 Report Share Posted November 7, 2016 Is Trump Your Fault? Twenty-four percent for me. Apparently I could have done more to stop him. Grailknight 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted November 7, 2016 Report Share Posted November 7, 2016 As if I have a moral obligation to dedicate my limited resources to stopping a celebrity billionaire. I did my part. I voted Giant Meteor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Shadow Posted November 8, 2016 Report Share Posted November 8, 2016 Is Trump Your Fault? Twenty-four percent for me. Apparently I could have done more to stop him. 8 % I am tremendously innocent and I get to go to the head of the line in the mass immigration to Canada if he wins. assault 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lectryk Posted November 8, 2016 Report Share Posted November 8, 2016 Is Trump Your Fault? Twenty-four percent for me. Apparently I could have done more to stop him. I'm getting a visit from the ghost of Abraham Lincoln. I guess to attempt to explain to him why .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted November 8, 2016 Report Share Posted November 8, 2016 I'd say the primary people at fault for Donald Trump are his parents. tkdguy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted November 8, 2016 Report Share Posted November 8, 2016 Is Trump Your Fault? Twenty-four percent for me. Apparently I could have done more to stop him. I didn't even get a percentage, just "tremendously innocent". Which is odd considering some of the answers I gave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted November 8, 2016 Report Share Posted November 8, 2016 Just to clarify a possible misunderstanding: emails that were clearly marked classified were sent through the official state department server. The controversy is over a handful of emails sent to Clintons private server that either should have been marked classified or which were classified retroactively. But she wasn't sending and receiving emails with a classified or top secret header over the private server. Also, the email server wasn't protected from FOIA requests, contrary to popular misconception. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted November 8, 2016 Report Share Posted November 8, 2016 Don't hate the figurehead, hate the system. The bipartisan system (us vs. them) full of career politicians working for themselves and their contributors (instead of us, the constituents) is the real problem. Can I hate the figurehead AND the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted November 8, 2016 Report Share Posted November 8, 2016 8 % I am tremendously innocent and I get to go to the head of the line in the mass immigration to Canada if he wins. Apparently 32% for me. Evidently crimes of omission. Apparently, I was supposed to attempt to convince people I know who have hated Hillary for 20 years to actually vote for Hillary (when indeed I will not be voting for Hillary nor Trump) I wonder what I'd get on a Hillary is your fault quiz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted November 8, 2016 Report Share Posted November 8, 2016 I'm getting a visit from the ghost of Abraham Lincoln. I guess to attempt to explain to him why .... I'm pretty sure we are going to all get visits from the ghost of veterans on Friday. "Yeah, Clinton vs Trump? Sorry about that whole dying in the trenches stuff" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doccowie Posted November 8, 2016 Report Share Posted November 8, 2016 Good luck to all my American friends, You have had a stressful few months (it's been tough enough with the Atlantic between us). The bile and misery in the news seems so alien to how I always find people in person, both those supporting Clinton or Trump. So, go vote for whoever you think best, and I am confident that the people I know and love over there will still be there no matter what the result. Keep/Make America Great! tkdguy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L. Marcus Posted November 8, 2016 Report Share Posted November 8, 2016 Break a leg, guys. In the thespian sense. Not the real one. That would not be nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted November 8, 2016 Report Share Posted November 8, 2016 We might break the emotional leg though. (course, for me, I am being asked right or left? ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted November 8, 2016 Report Share Posted November 8, 2016 I finally found a reason you should vote, Badger. Nolgroth and Iuz the Evil 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
薔薇語 Posted November 8, 2016 Report Share Posted November 8, 2016 Is Trump Your Fault? Twenty-four percent for me. Apparently I could have done more to stop him. Plausibly not guilty for myself. Edit: Just realized I got 32%. Strange quiz. Soar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolgroth Posted November 8, 2016 Report Share Posted November 8, 2016 That's just low Jeff. That's really low. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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