Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[archer]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2021/01/07/capitol-protests-dc-live-updates/#link-EF65NBEEYNEDZHPSTUC5H7VD34

 

Maryland Gov. Larry Hogan (R) offered new details Thursday about the delayed response to assist law enforcement at the Capitol, saying the Maryland National Guard was ready to help but was “repeatedly” told they did not have the authorization needed to join the effort. Hogan received a panicked call from House Majority Leader Steny H. Hoyer (D-Md)., who pleaded with him to send in troops from Maryland, the governor said. Hoyer told him that he was calling from a secure location with House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) and Senate Minority Leader Charles E. Schumer (D-N.Y.).

 

“I was actually on the phone with Leader Hoyer who was pleading with us to send the guard,” Hogan said. “He was yelling across the room to Schumer and they were back and forth saying we do have the authorization and I’m saying, ‘I’m telling you we do not have the authorization.' ”

 

Hogan said Maj. Gen. Timothy Gowen, the adjutant general of the Maryland National Guard, was repeatedly rebuffed by the head of the National Guard at the federal level...

 

Ninety minutes later, Hogan said, he received a call “out of the blue, not from the secretary of defense, not through what would be normal channels,” but from Ryan McCarthy, the secretary of the Army. McCarthy asked if the Maryland guardsmen could “come as soon as possible,”

[archer]

U.S. Capitol Police Chief Steven Sund, under pressure from Schumer, Pelosi and other congressional leaders, was forced to resign.

 

In the Seattle Times, I read that the Capitol Police in the days before the riot explicitly turned down help from the National Guard. And as the rioters were going after the Capitol building, refused an offer from the FBI to deploy whatever help they could.

 

Unfortunately, that article is behind a paywall.

 

Here's an article which covers the National Guard aspect of the story

https://thehill.com/news-by-subject/defense-homeland-security/533273-capitol-police-rejected-offer-for-help-from

[Duke Bushido]

[unclevlad]

1 hour ago, archer said:

I don't think it was a deliberate coup attempt.

 

The people breaking into the Capitol building obviously had no idea what to do after they got inside or what they wanted. They took selfies, looted a little, and stood around gawking like tourists. They weren't breaking down doors and dragging out lawmakers to stand trial in a kangaroo court or anything like that.

 

Trump obviously incited them and I think that it was an attempt to change the narrative of his impending decisive defeat. But he didn't know what would happen and had no plan at all to capitalize on anything which might have happened.

 

 

But if the point of the effort was to disrupt certification of the electoral college result...and the timing says that was EXACTLY the intent...then it was an effort to prevent the normal transfer of power.  That is a coup, by my lights.  An extremely cowardly one, too.

 

Also remember that 2 bombs were found in the Capitol.  Perhaps they were purely intended to intimidate;  perhaps they weren't very well built.  Or they were on a timer to go off when Congress had returned.  THAT would've almost certainly stopped the proceedings for a considerable time.

[dmjalund]

someone should put up a 'wall of shame' on the internet listing all the invaders as they get identified

[archer]

WSJ reporting that Betsy DeVos has resigned.

 

MSNBC still working to confirm it.

[Pariah]

7 hours ago, Cancer said:

Assuming he participates in the inauguration on the 20th, the Secret Service had better check in the outgoing president for firearms before allowing him into the proceedings.

 

I also propose a name for yesterday's affair: "Beer Hall Putsch II".

 

Trump puts the putz in putsch.

 

 

6 minutes ago, dmjalund said:

someone should put up a 'wall of shame' on the internet listing all the invaders as they get identified

 

I second the motion.

[Pariah]

7 minutes ago, archer said:

WSJ reporting that Betsy DeVos has resigned.

 

MSNBC still working to confirm it.

 

Three and a half years too late for my taste, but I'll take it.

 

I've long wondered how someone so clearly unqualified and so clearly antagonistic toward public education would even want to lead the Department of Education. And then I remembered that the DeVos family money comes from Amway, the biggest, most successful pyramid scheme in the history of American business. A well-educated America is not in her own best financial interest. She was just protecting her cash cow.

[BNakagawa]

1 hour ago, archer said:

I don't think it was a deliberate coup attempt.

 

The people breaking into the Capitol building obviously had no idea what to do after they got inside or what they wanted. They took selfies, looted a little, and stood around gawking like tourists. They weren't breaking down doors and dragging out lawmakers to stand trial in a kangaroo court or anything like that.

 

Trump obviously incited them and I think that it was an attempt to change the narrative of his impending decisive defeat. But he didn't know what would happen and had no plan at all to capitalize on anything which might have happened.

 

He was just doing the same thing he's done every day: cause chaos and look to see if there's any way to profit from the chaos.

 

To have a coup attempt, you have to have a coup and an attempt (j/k). I don't think we had either.

 

 

Now I wouldn't be surprised if some of the people who came into the Capitol building did so at Trump's orders. And that the various missing papers, computers, and incidentals from lawmakers' offices will end up in Trump's hands for him to try to make a buck from. Or through Trump's hands into Russian hands.

the event was specifically timed to interfere with the counting of the electoral votes. It had one and only one purpose - namely to try to derail the process of certifying the 2020 presidential election. 

 

Outside of deliberately targeting the lives of the President Elect and Vice President Elect, I don't see how more clearly you can try to attempt a coup against a government that has yet to take the reins of power.

[Old Man]

1 hour ago, archer said:

I don't think it was a deliberate coup attempt.

 

The people breaking into the Capitol building obviously had no idea what to do after they got inside or what they wanted. They took selfies, looted a little, and stood around gawking like tourists. They weren't breaking down doors and dragging out lawmakers to stand trial in a kangaroo court or anything like that.

 

Trump obviously incited them and I think that it was an attempt to change the narrative of his impending decisive defeat. But he didn't know what would happen and had no plan at all to capitalize on anything which might have happened.

 

He was just doing the same thing he's done every day: cause chaos and look to see if there's any way to profit from the chaos.

 

To have a coup attempt, you have to have a coup and an attempt (j/k). I don't think we had either.

 

It hardly has to be organized down to the boots on the ground to count as a coup attempt, and in fact such attempts rarely are organized to that degree.  An armed mob was incited to disrupt the certification of the electoral college vote, the Capitol Police let it happen, and Trump refused to authorize assistance by the National Guard.  This is exactly how coups proceed in other countries like Mali and Montenegro, only with a thin veneer of plausible deniability. 

 

In addition, it's critical that this be treated as a coup attempt regardless.  Otherwise the next, real, coup attempt will look just like it.

[unclevlad]

37 minutes ago, archer said:

WSJ reporting that Betsy DeVos has resigned.

 

MSNBC still working to confirm it.

 

Being reported by WaPo and CNN as well.  Correction:  reported by everyone.

 

EDIT:  Excerpts from her resignation letter, quote in NYT:

 

Quote

“We should be highlighting and celebrating your administration’s many accomplishments on behalf of the American people,” she wrote in the letter, which was obtained by The New York Times. “Instead, we are left to clean up the mess caused by violent protesters overrunning the U.S. Capitol in an attempt to undermine the people’s business.”

 

“That behavior was unconscionable for our country,” she added. “There is no mistaking the impact your rhetoric had on the situation, and it is the inflection point for me.”

 

EDIT 2:  while, OK, one can criticize these resignations at this hour, after having continued to serve so long, but recognize something.  ESPECIALLY when the blame is dropped squarely into Trump's lap, this is ratcheting up pressure on the Congressional Republicans if the 25th Amendment route can't be used.  (And at this point, it feels very murky.)  And for that matter, on Pelosi to bring articles of impeachment forward.

[archer]

DeVos's resignation is effective on January 8th.

 

I was expecting her to be one of the most hardcore holdouts against invoking the 25th amendment. But I guess now she's sidestepping her responsibility.

[unclevlad]

6 minutes ago, archer said:

DeVos's resignation is effective on January 8th.

 

I was expecting her to be one of the most hardcore holdouts against invoking the 25th amendment. But I guess now she's sidestepping her responsibility.

 

 

Another take, and I thought this with Chao:  not enough members are backing it, and/or Pence is signaling he's unwilling to do it.  The latter is simpler;  if he says No, I'm not kicking off the process, it won't happen.

[Ranxerox]

2 hours ago, archer said:

I don't think it was a deliberate coup attempt.

 

The people breaking into the Capitol building obviously had no idea what to do after they got inside or what they wanted. They took selfies, looted a little, and stood around gawking like tourists. They weren't breaking down doors and dragging out lawmakers to stand trial in a kangaroo court or anything like that.

 

 

Some of the people who stormed the Capitol came prepared to take hostages.  What the frell were they doing if not attempting a coup?

 

[unclevlad]

1 hour ago, dmjalund said:

someone should put up a 'wall of shame' on the internet listing all the invaders as they get identified

 

I prefer the wall of shame that's been posted:  every Senator or Congressman who voted to overturn the election results.

[TrickstaPriest]

13 minutes ago, Ranxerox said:

Some of the people who stormed the Capitol came prepared to take hostages.  What the frell were they doing if not attempting a coup?

 

 

Please, I wholly appreciate any and all video that we can collate of the event.  Because I want to counter all the BS I'm already hearing.  From 'antifa did it' to 'they were just chilling and standing around'.

 

12 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

I prefer the wall of shame that's been posted:  every Senator or Congressman who voted to overturn the election results.

 

I agree except maybe for those who entered the building.  Those people can go eff off.

[Pariah]

13 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

I prefer the wall of shame that's been posted:  every Senator or Congressman who voted to overturn the election results.

 

I see no reason why this has to be an either-or proposition.

[Old Man]

14 minutes ago, Ranxerox said:

 

Some of the people who stormed the Capitol came prepared to take hostages.  What the frell were they doing if not attempting a coup?

 

 

They also had folding chairs, playing cards, MREs, and other items that one might bring if one were expecting to be staying in the building for a while.

 

Like I said, if these guys had actually gotten hold of Pence or a handful of Senators, I don't think we'd be referring to this as an attempted coup.

[unclevlad]

6 minutes ago, TrickstaPriest said:

I agree except maybe for those who entered the building.  Those people can go eff off.

 

Yeah, they can.  No problem there.  However, even the major figures like the QAnon Shaman pale by comparison to every official government rep who blatantly set aside their oaths of office and chose to support a cause that lock, stock, and barrel is Trump's, and for the express intent of attempting to deny the democratic process.  All of them are betrayers of country, in Dante's categorization, and belong in the 2nd ring of the 9th circle of Hell.  Of course they deny this, but that's self-serving.  Or if true, they should be removed from office for incompetence.

[archer]

Senate Sergeant-at-Arms Michael Stenger and House Sergeant-at-Arms Paul Irving have each resigned.

[TrickstaPriest]

And in Trump's speech he essentially set himself up for a 2024 election run.

 

Because he literally is maximizing damage to everything and everyone.

 

I still think things are going to get worse over the next two weeks.  I don't think he can actually help himself.

 

Even if so, how do you all think the next election cycle will go?  For someone who literally caused a coup?

[Cancer]

If it were up to me, the only safe place on Earth for him would be in the land already run the way he likes it, and that's North Korea.

[archer]

4 minutes ago, TrickstaPriest said:

And in Trump's speech he essentially set himself up for a 2024 election run.

 

Because he literally is maximizing damage to everything and everyone.

 

I still think things are going to get worse over the next two weeks.  I don't think he can actually help himself.

 

Even if so, how do you all think the next election cycle will go?  For someone who literally caused a coup?

 

Way too early to say.

 

People tend to have a really short political memory.

 

Democrats distanced themselves from Bill Clinton himself at the end of Clinton's presidency.

 

A few years later, he was a hero of the party again.

 

A decade later, he's looked back on by the general public as being an American statesman.

 

My instincts are that it won't go well for Trump. He's always been more of a huckster than a statesman so I think it will be very difficult to rehabilitate himself in the eyes of the general public.

 

But there's 4 years between now and then. All the states could choose to have closed primaries so that only self-identified Republicans can vote in any of the Republican primaries. If they do that, Trump could have an excellent chance of winning the nomination again. All he'd need to do is show up and lean on a podium and his faithful will love him.

 

But if the rules stay the same or become even more open to non-Republicans voting in the Republican primaries, Trump could have problems.

 

And a lot depends on who else is running. There's at least a couple of Trump clones who are wanting to run. There's a couple of people who were in the Trump administration who want to run. And there's going to be inevitably at least one virulently anti-Trump candidate who runs.

 

Trump might intimidate people who are wanting to run in his lane into dropping out. Or he might wind up running against a couple of Trump clones and multiple former Trump administration officials and the pro-Trump vote could splinter five ways.

 

I think all of this has definitely weakened Trump's chances. It hasn't made him look strong and that'll encourage the Trump clones into trying to grab the reins of the Trumpian movement.

[unclevlad]

Schumer announced intent to can the Senate sergeant at arms.  It's something of a Majority Leader privilege position in any case.  And ya gotta concede that it'd be kind of hard to have confidence in them.

 

I think there's going to be a bumper crop of "Trump tell-all" books this summer by a whole lot of those he's betrayed.  To a degree, ok, there's still going to be a core element that will never waver, but I'm talking a herd's worth of cow manure is gonna be dumped on him, and from too many sides, so most of his support will disappear.

That's also assuming there isn't an impeachment effort come February or so.  Get another coronavirus relief bill passed;  get agreement on virus distribution plans and get those in place.  Then impeach.  It also assumes that even without impeachment, what criminal charges might be filed, up to and including seditious conspiracy?  All the fraud and tax evasion charges?  

 

And I can see particularly Hawley capitalizing should Trump fall from grace.  Cruz might be a bit too connected, but Hawley can maybe pick up the "I'm with you, I hear you;  Trump was flawed but his heart was right for us."  And sell it.  Hawley MIGHT end up being more dangerous because we've already seen his lack of scruples is on par with Trump, but he probably doesn't have Trump's major flaws.

 

Last point:  does anyone think Trump will clean up his social media act meaningfully?  So he will probably be blocked on all the major platforms.

[BNakagawa]

Dan Rather thinks it was a coup attempt.