Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[archer]

19 minutes ago, Ragitsu said:

 

The soil of our national discourse is saturated...choked...with misinformation that allows the weed of ignorance to flourish; it is prolific and supremely difficult to extirpate. I imagine we will require at least two generations of concerted effort in filtering out the impurities and planting the seeds of education before the landscape begins to reject this aberrant growth. Of course, no real improvements can be made as long as politicians profiting off of that ugly crop keep chopping down every sapling they come across.

 

Maybe a sapling analogy isn't the best at a time when so many of the voters appear to be saps....

 

 

[Cancer]

Well, assuming we make through the next two weeks and conclude the transition to President Biden, ideally we will have time to start hashing out differences.  Duke Bushido has made clear that the section of the population with a conservative bent has grievances they feel have been deliberately slighted.  (The liberal side, of course, has a corresponding set of complaints, but for the most part we pinkos on these forums have our fingers on those.) 

 

Personally, I am have been urban for 20 years, and so left-leaning that while I have lived in the rural and conservative social environment, it's so far back I can no longer guess what those really are.  I have the prejudice -- and by now, yeah, I'll concede it's a prejudice -- that the middle/poor class with conservative preferences are largely puppets of the extremely rich, who prey on them economically.  I imagine there are prejudices across the boundary who believe that I'm at best a pawn of the antifa or some such, if not a low-grade active agent for them. 

 

Spoiler

(And, oh, let's see if we can steal or bribe a couple of old Soviet-era nukes from an arsenal in Russia, set one off to do away with Putin and the central state security headquarters, and another to take out the installation in St Petersburg from which the Russians have been hacking the rest of the world and running lots of inflammatory web-spam bots, and put a clamp on that active campaign of destabilizing the rest of the world.  Moscow Mitch probably would be a bit put out, but ... of well.  He's got a safe seat no matter what.)

 

There.  That venom out of my system for a couple of minutes ....

 

Can we get back to trying to communicate sincerely, and listen to each other, and negotiate each others' genuine concerns?  I am terribly, terribly tired of Gingrich's "never compromise" doctrine, and the replacement of conversation by taunting demonstrations, and I know there are mirrored versions of this on the left side.

 

First, let's drive a stake through the COVID vampire.  Then start restoring the healthcare infrastructure from the stress fractures the virus has been pushing into it.  Then get the economy limping back towards working.

 

That'll take a couple of years at least, of course, but it's a beginning that we have to have.

[Lord Liaden]

Only one side of the dispute has broadly embraced deceit, fear, and hatred. There will be no meaningful discourse while that is in play. It can only be opposed.

[Ragitsu]

2 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Only one side of the dispute has broadly embraced deceit, fear, and hatred. There will be no meaningful discourse while that is in play. It can only be opposed.

 

False equivalencies must be shooed whenever they make an appearance; they are a distraction par excellence.

[Hermit]

9 hours ago, Cancer said:

 

 

Can we get back to trying to communicate sincerely, and listen to each other, and negotiate each others' genuine concerns?  I am terribly, terribly tired of Gingrich's "never compromise" doctrine, and the replacement of conversation by taunting demonstrations, and I know there are mirrored versions of this on the left side.

 

First, let's drive a stake through the COVID vampire.  Then start restoring the healthcare infrastructure from the stress fractures the virus has been pushing into it.  Then get the economy limping back towards working.

 

That'll take a couple of years at least, of course, but it's a beginning that we have to have.

 

THANK you for this. We all have some biases, but we can't let us blind us to the fact that some people who do not agree with us have their own legitimate concerns.  If we don't address them, talk about them, even if we don't agree with the whys and hows, we're just going to have another Trump, a smarter one possibly, show up in 10 years and con a whole new crop of people who had concerns ignored. 

 

 

[death tribble]

15 hours ago, Cygnia said:

Meltdown in 3...2...

 

Twitter permanently suspends President Donald Trump

And this is the BBC's take on the same thing

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-55597840

[Sociotard]

I'm not convinced the twitter shutdown will help much. His audience REALLY likes him and will follow him to Parler or whatever platform he finds.

 

Speaking of, there is a report of organizing a 'million militia march' on DC and all state capitals. The riot in DC was mostly signs and cameras, flags and phones. This one . . . could be interesting.

Twitter warns of new violence to come, brewing again on social media, as reason for Trump ban (msn.com)

 

Counterpoint: the reason the rioters were able to do so well against the Capitol is that it was a surprise. The rioters themselves didn't realize they were going to do that when they woke up that morning. Trump said to march, and they marched. There was no time for intelligence to direct extra security. If the report of a million militia march made it into the news, I guarantee that police will be ready.

[Starlord]

[Pariah]

Parler is out of the Google Play Store until they put some moderation in place. No word yet if Apple's App Store will follow suit.

[unclevlad]

1 hour ago, Sociotard said:

I'm not convinced the twitter shutdown will help much. His audience REALLY likes him and will follow him to Parler or whatever platform he finds.

 

Speaking of, there is a report of organizing a 'million militia march' on DC and all state capitals. The riot in DC was mostly signs and cameras, flags and phones. This one . . . could be interesting.

Twitter warns of new violence to come, brewing again on social media, as reason for Trump ban (msn.com)

 

Counterpoint: the reason the rioters were able to do so well against the Capitol is that it was a surprise. The rioters themselves didn't realize they were going to do that when they woke up that morning. Trump said to march, and they marched. There was no time for intelligence to direct extra security. If the report of a million militia march made it into the news, I guarantee that police will be ready.

 

Parler should be somewhat blunted.  Google's removed it;  Apple is very likely to follow.  It seems likely that they'll do the same with future iterations.  It won't eliminate Parler, tho.  The other side will be the cable channels.  I'm not sure what, if anything, can be done about them.  We can hope that they're strangled financially through limited sponsorship.

 

"For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" is true in physics...but not socially.  Action begets escalating counteraction.  There's a limit to how far this can go but we're nowhere NEAR that limit.  And with the deadline to act so near...yeah, the conditions seem far too ripe for severe violence.  It may not play out;  it seems likely that, for the most part, these calls won't generate the numbers the agitators seek.  But in places it seems all to likely they will.  Also as pointed out, police will be mobilized and on alert.  You have to think their expectation is, any approaching group IS intending to do violence, so their response will be faster and harsher.  If it only gets to tear gassing the crowd and isolated shots fired, well, that might be a big win....

 

Otherwise the death toll could be substantial.

[DShomshak]

17 hours ago, archer said:

 

I thought I'd responded to this but can't find my earlier comment.

 

Watching MSNBC last night, they interviewed a reporter who over the last year has been covering Proud Boys and other white supremacist groups in relation to their political activities.

 

He claimed that he recognized by name most of the people who were shown on video and in pictures inside the Capitol building because he'd been following their movement closely and that they haven't been making their identities a secret.

 

If the police have any trouble identifying the people who did this, I guess they could talk to that guy.

Yesterday's episode of The Daily (the NYTimes radio show) featured the reporters who've followed the Trumpist "Stop the Steal" movement since the election. They say people were talking about storming the Capitol weeks ago, setting up carpools so people could bring their guns without being blocked by airlines, posting images of the carpools on social media saying "Here we are, armed, on our way to attack the government," etc. There would seem to be quite an adequate trail for the FBI.

 

OTOH they also explained some of the timidity of the Washington, DC and Capitol Police preparation. After views of Black Hawk helicopters menacing BLM protesters went around the world, there was some serious fear of backlash if they made a show of force and nothing happened. Apparently not realizing that there might be a significant difference between people with the avowed goal of peaceful protest, and people with the avowed goal of overturning the election through at least the threat of violence.

 

Also, on All Things Considered: Dem senator asks Capitol police why they aren't arresting more people as they clear the Capitol. Senator said they told him they can't walk and chew gum at the same time. I assume that's a free interpretation of what they actually said. Maybe there's even good reasons for it, but it's still disappointing.

 

Segment on Georgia senatorial elections found that some Georgians were rather not charmed with Loeffler's "More conservative than Attila the Hun!" slogan. I'm speculating here, but just possibly comparing yourself to a marauding, scorched-earth destroyer doesn't fly well in the state that remembers the burning of Atlanta and Sherman's march to the sea. Who knew?

 

Also, some Georgians interviewed say they like splitting the ticket and divided government. With Loeffler and Perdue both claiming to be Trump rubber-stamps, some Georgians saw no need to elect both of them.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Chris Goodwin]

13 hours ago, Cancer said:

Can we get back to trying to communicate sincerely, and listen to each other, and negotiate each others' genuine concerns?  I am terribly, terribly tired of Gingrich's "never compromise" doctrine, and the replacement of conversation by taunting demonstrations, and I know there are mirrored versions of this on the left side.

 

Not until there have been meaningful consequences for the conspirators and the rioters.  

 

They don't get to try to overthrow the government and then fall back on weak cries of "but unity!"  They wanted unity, they should have supported and defended the Constitution of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic, like they put up their right hands and swore to, not join those enemies.  

 

No unity with traitors.

[Sociotard]

Not the onion: The rioters left behind signs, flags, hats, pepper spray cans, and other garbage. The Smithsonian is collecting it as historical artifacts.

 

https://thehill.com/homenews/news/533475-flags-signs-and-other-items-left-behind-in-capitol-riot-to-be-preserved-as

[TrickstaPriest]

43 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

They don't get to try to overthrow the government and then fall back on weak cries of "but unity!"  They wanted unity, they should have supported and defended the Constitution of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic, like they put up their right hands and swore to, not join those enemies.  

 

 

I won't call everyone supporting that crazed foolery such things

 

But I posted that interview literally to explain/show how a lot of the media people arguing for unity argue in a completely, utterly, disingenuous manner.  literally pushing nazi manifesto concerns as 'not really racism but valid concerns' while simultaneously arguing the other person is 'just as racist'

 

The thought leaders of this movement are pure cancer

[Dr. MID-Nite]

5 hours ago, Hermit said:

 

THANK you for this. We all have some biases, but we can't let us blind us to the fact that some people who do not agree with us have their own legitimate concerns.  If we don't address them, talk about them, even if we don't agree with the whys and hows, we're just going to have another Trump, a smarter one possibly, show up in 10 years and con a whole new crop of people who had concerns ignored. 

 

 

 

With respect, I don't think "we don't want minorities or gays in America" is a "legitimate concern"...as but one example. Treating them as such leads to "appeasement" and we all know how that turns out. The progressive elements in this country bend over backwards to try to come to an understanding with the conservative elements and they just take advantage of that kindness while being as inflexible as ever. They haven't thrown out even a single olive branch while the progressive side has offered up entire damn forests. As a progressive, I feel like I'm talking to people in a soundproof room. How can we talk about legitimate concerns when conservatives aren't even willing to sit down at the table? And the implication is that it is somehow progressives' fault for Trump because we're "not listening"? Nonsense. The conservative oligarchy that runs America created Trump. That same oligarchy that cares only about wealth and power and manipulates Americans into fighting against their own best interests. Americans ate up Trump's rhetoric because the nation is at heart still living in the 18th century.

[Simon]

The one thing a tolerant society must not tolerate is intolerance.

[megaplayboy]

1 minute ago, Simon said:

The one thing a tolerant society must not tolerate is intolerance.

Coincidentally this is also the only thing UUs don't tolerate.

[unclevlad]

47 minutes ago, TrickstaPriest said:

 

I won't call everyone supporting that crazed foolery such things

 

But I posted that interview literally to explain/show how a lot of the media people arguing for unity argue in a completely, utterly, disingenuous manner.  literally pushing nazi manifesto concerns as 'not really racism but valid concerns' while simultaneously arguing the other person is 'just as racist'

 

The thought leaders of this movement are pure cancer

 

I think Chris is calling out the elected government types.  His comment specifically targets the federal ones;  I'm not sure state officers are required to uphold the US Constitution, but I think he fully intends to include, say, the WVa state rep who's been busted.  

[Hermit]

48 minutes ago, Dr. MID-Nite said:

 

With respect, I don't think "we don't want minorities or gays in America" is a "legitimate concern"...as but one example. Treating them as such leads to "appeasement" and we all know how that turns out. The progressive elements in this country bend over backwards to try to come to an understanding with the conservative elements and they just take advantage of that kindness while being as inflexible as ever. They haven't thrown out even a single olive branch while the progressive side has offered up entire damn forests. As a progressive, I feel like I'm talking to people in a soundproof room. How can we talk about legitimate concerns when conservatives aren't even willing to sit down at the table? And the implication is that it is somehow progressives' fault for Trump because we're "not listening"? Nonsense. The conservative oligarchy that runs America created Trump. That same oligarchy that cares only about wealth and power and manipulates Americans into fighting against their own best interests. Americans ate up Trump's rhetoric because the nation is at heart still living in the 18th century.

 

First, can we define who "THEY" is? Because, maybe I misread Cancer, but I thought he meant Americans with a conservative bent and often rural background. Others seem to be defining THEY to those who stormed the white house in a seditious act, and it's a mistake to assume all of the former are the same mindset as the latter. 

 

That said, yes, as a guy who voted for Bernie in the primaries I totally feel the frustration of being told that ideas I think are just  common sense and common decency are too big and unrealistic over and over. Be it from more moderate democrats or those voting republican.  I'm sure they're frustrated with me being so fussy about such.

 

You can want border security while recognizing that families being separated is wrong and without discouraging increased means for LEGAL immigration. 

You can be pro right to bear arms or even LIKE guns without being against waiting periods or background checks.

You can be against Free Trade set ups that seem to cost jobs at home without being xenophobic.

 

Some folks are treating ANYONE with a conservative leaning as if they're cheering Trump on, and that is delusional and destructive in a time when we're already loaded up on destructive delusion in this country and we don't need more.

 

[Chris Goodwin]

12 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

 

I think Chris is calling out the elected government types.  His comment specifically targets the federal ones;  I'm not sure state officers are required to uphold the US Constitution, but I think he fully intends to include, say, the WVa state rep who's been busted.  

 

I was specifically calling out federal elected officials, including POTUS, but also people like the Air Force veteran who died when she was shot, storming the Capitol as well as other veteran and active duty personnel.  I am also an Air Force veteran, and that made me sick.

[death tribble]

They have arrested the QAnon shaman and his name is Jake Angeli

[unclevlad]

They also got the *moron* waving to the camera carrying away the House lectern.

[TrickstaPriest]

18 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

I think Chris is calling out the elected government types.  His comment specifically targets the federal ones;  I'm not sure state officers are required to uphold the US Constitution, but I think he fully intends to include, say, the WVa state rep who's been busted.  

 

You may be right on that.  My apologies!

2 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

I was specifically calling out federal elected officials, including POTUS, but also people like the Air Force veteran who died when she was shot, storming the Capitol as well as other veteran and active duty personnel.  I am also an Air Force veteran, and that made me sick.

Got it.  :X

Yeah, I have nothing but contempt for those individuals.

18 minutes ago, Hermit said:

Some folks are treating ANYONE with a conservative leaning as if they're cheering Trump on, and that is delusional and destructive in a time when we're already loaded up on destructive delusion in this country and we don't need more.

 

 

Wholly agree

Just now, unclevlad said:

They also got the *moron* waving to the camera carrying away the House lectern.

 

I wonder how much of the operational equipment (mail, laptops, etc) were recovered so far?  That seems like an infosec / opsec / etc nightmare

[Chris Goodwin]

22 minutes ago, Hermit said:

Some folks are treating ANYONE with a conservative leaning as if they're cheering Trump on, and that is delusional and destructive in a time when we're already loaded up on destructive delusion in this country and we don't need more.

 

 

Anti-Trump conservatives need to be more bold in their criticism, and have needed to for the past four years.  

 

For that matter, so do Democrats.  Passive aggressive, Twitter-sniping, media-litigating "resistance" hasn't done anything but given Trump more attention and allowed him to cast himself as the persecuted victim.

[Hermit]

24 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

Anti-Trump conservatives need to be more bold in their criticism, and have needed to for the past four years.  

 

For that matter, so do Democrats.  Passive aggressive, Twitter-sniping, media-litigating "resistance" hasn't done anything but given Trump more attention and allowed him to cast himself as the persecuted victim.

 

I tend to agree with you, but I'm still for putting our broadest brushes down