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1 minute ago, Ragitsu said:

 

He also paints and makes the occasional appearance on Ellen. Is it en vogue to blank out the second Iraq War, the Afghanistan War, the Guantanamo Bay detention facility and the aftermath of all his bad decisions because of Trump's more recent evil?

That's not what you said. And as much as I hate to say it about a 20 year police action, that is nothing compared to the four years that Trump has been in office. Bush conceded when he lost, he didn't try to get his vp killed with an armed insurrection just for starters.

 

Let's put it like this the eight years Bush was in office almost 7k servicemen were killed, maybe as many as 200k civilians (no one knows the actual number).  

 

Trump killed that many people in a month

CES

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I feel this needs to be shared.  

Meanwhile over Mar-a Lago:  

Posted Images

2 hours ago, TrickstaPriest said:

Exactly.  I don't blame the officers that were there... except for the ones breaching it

 

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/benking/capitol-dc-riot-trump

 

[

While some of the images from that day appeared to show officers standing by to let the mob into the Capitol building, the veteran officer said that they had fought them off for two hours before the attackers eventually gained access. The officer said that many of the widely spread images of smiling marauders, wandering the halls dressed in absurd costumes, had the effect of downplaying how well prepared some of the rioters were to overtake the building, and even to capture and kill Congress members.

“That was a heavily trained group of militia terrorists that attacked us,” said the officer, who has been with the department for more than a decade. “They had radios, we found them, they had two-way communicators and earpieces. They had bear spray. They had flash bangs ... They were prepared. They strategically put two IEDs, pipe bombs, in two different locations. These guys were military trained. A lot of them were former military,” the officer said, referring to two suspected pipe bombs that were found outside the headquarters of the Democratic National Committee and the Republican National Committee.

The officer even described coming face-to-face with police officers from across the country in the mob. He said some of them flashed their badges, telling him to let them through, and trying to explain that this was all part of a movement that was supposed to help.

“You have the nerve to be holding a Blue Lives Matter flag, and you are out there fucking us up,” he told one group of protesters he encountered inside the Capitol. “[One guy] pulled out his badge and he said, ‘We’re doing this for you.’ Another guy had his badge. So I was like, ‘Well, you gotta be kidding.’”

Another officer, a newer recruit, echoed these sentiments, saying that where he was on the steps to the Rotunda on the east side of the Capitol, he was engaged in hand-to-hand battles trying to fight the attackers off. But he said they were outnumbered 10 to 1, and described extraordinary scenes in which protesters holding Blue Lives Matter flags launched themselves at police officers.

“We were telling them to back up and get away and stop, and they’re telling us they are on our side, and they’re doing this for us, and they’re saying this as I’m getting punched in my face by one of them … That happened to a lot of us. We were getting pepper-sprayed in the face by those protesters — I'm not going to even call them protesters — by those domestic terrorists,” said the officer.

]

 

I'm not sure where to start.

 

< emotion: frustration >

 

Officials in these situations always seem amazed that people in the civilian population have military training. Well, yes they do. We as a society actively recruit civilians and train them in the military. Then when they're done with their time in the military, they return to civilian life.

 

People don't miraculously forget what they've learned in the military just because they've returned to civilian life. And being in the military doesn't turn you into some paragon of virtue who would never do anything questionable once you return to civilian life. It just makes you a civilian who's had military training.

 

These radicalized groups recruit people who have a military background for the same reason that many police departments recruit people who have a military background: it's easier to train someone who is already at least partially trained and who has experience in following orders.

 

Now as far as the bear spray, pepper spray, tear gas, two way radios with earpieces, zip ties, and guns go: for many people that qualifies as a list of random items which people keep within arms reach of their computer rather than unusual gear.

 

I do research as a hobby. 

 

One of the things I've researched is survivalist and prepper culture (I've likely had conversations with at least some of the rioters.)

 

For one thing, the topic is interesting (Antibiotics for the fish in your aquarium are much the same thing as antibiotics for a person but are available widely at a variety of places without a prescription. I wouldn't use fish or animal antibiotics to treat myself at the moment. But in a world-ending emergency, it's nice to know.) For another thing, it's helpful in planning post-apocalyptic gaming and fiction to know what a survivalist might have at his place and know just how he'd be prepared.

 

A lot of it is very simple. A lot more of it is very complex and nuanced. The simple part:

 

How do you protect your property if there's no police and no prospect of there being police? Gun. 

 

What if there's two of you? Guns plus two way radio with earpieces (noise from a radio will give away your position and most people can't shoot accurately in an emergency with a handgun in one hand and a radio in the other).

 

What happens if you stop someone breaking into your home and you don't want to kill them outright? Pepper spray and zip ties.

 

People have those things around right now. Even many of the ones who aren't complete nuts are people live in rural areas where it might take the law more than an hour to respond even in the most dire of emergencies. So they either own something to take care of themselves or cross their fingers and hope they never have any emergency which would need a response from law enforcement.

 

There's 4-9 million people who self-identify as a prepper of some sort according to what survey you believe. A lot more than that live in unincorporated rural areas with spotty law enforcement capabilities.

 

Heck, I've got pepper spray (which my wife insisted we purchase), zip ties (left over from various handyman projects), and a second-hand gun (which was my high school graduation present at a time when my parents had a gun but no money for presents). And I'm not even radicalized, collecting weapons, preparing to make trouble, or living in a rural area.

 

There's been stories in the mainstream media over the last 10 years that street gangs and terrorist groups are intentionally sending their members to join the US military because it's the cheapest and best training that they can get.

 

So I'm frustrated at officials and officers who are supposed to have widespread general knowledge of the threats which might be out there expressing "OMG, they had military training and items which are available for unrestricted sale to the general public at reasonable prices!" 

 

< /frustration >

 

Now about the Capitol Hill invasion itself. Below I posted a video taken by a reporter who started out in the Senate gallery and came downstairs to see what was happening when the noise got loud enough that it was clear that the rioters had come into the building.

 

As he gets down the stairs, we first see the baton which the officer left on the floor some distance back from the doorway. This is pretty good planning since if he got disarmed in the doorway he can pick up a weapon during his retreat.

 

But notice the officer is the only officer present and in the initial picture, there's at least ten people visible coming in and it sounds like there's a heck of a lot more of them out there.

 

As the rioters make their way into the building, they've got a choice of directions to go. They can follow the officer up the stairs to their left. They can go straight which appears to be an unopposed path forward into the building. Or they can go up the stairs to their right, which also appears to be an unopposed path forward into the building.

 

Instead of taking either of the unopposed path, they choose to pursue the officer. In effect, they're herding the officer and making sure they have control of the building rather than spreading out at random and not knowing what parts they were going to be controlling and where officers might be gathering.

 

At each choice of direction to go, they consistently continue to herd the officer. And they continue herding the officer until he finally falls back to the gallery where there were several other officers.

 

The intruders, still with superior numbers, face off with the officers and keep them pinned in place while you can see in the background other intruders going deeper into the building after they'd finally succeeded in corralling the officers.

 

It's tough to tell if there was an actual plan for that to happen. Or if the first couple of people just decided to herd the officer and the rest of the mob just happened to follow along.

 

But either way, it effectively gave them control of a large part of the building while not letting them lose track of where the opposition was or what it might have been doing. 

 

 

 

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20 minutes ago, Ragitsu said:

 

He also paints and makes the occasional appearance on Ellen. Is it en vogue to blank out the second Iraq War, the Afghanistan War, the Guantanamo Bay detention facility, the Patriot Act and the hideously protracted aftermath of all his bad decisions because of Trump's more recent evil?

 

Second Iraq War, perhaps, but the Afghan War was forced on him by 9/11...as was much of the Patriot Act.  Even the 2nd Iraq War had *some* justification.  I didn't like Jr, don't get me wrong, but....

 

Trump incited a movement that has a strong chance to turn into a full-on domestic terrorism movement.  He targeted the core principles of democracy throughout.  His irresponsible dismissal of the coronavirus from the start has probably cost a good 100,000 lives.  The aftermath of his actions will extend DECADES...admittedly, in part because the roots have been there, but he's responsible for feeding, watering, and transplanting all the noxious weeds to make sure they flourish.

 

Trump is not merely the worst President;  he will go down as one of the worst freely chosen leaders ever.  He's not #1;  that's Hitler, hopefully forever;  that is, of course, Hitler.  For US Presidents, IMO he adjusted the scale, the gap between him and anyone else is that big.

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6 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

 

Second Iraq War, perhaps, but the Afghan War was forced on him by 9/11...as was much of the Patriot Act.  Even the 2nd Iraq War had *some* justification.  I didn't like Jr, don't get me wrong, but....

 

No. He wanted a continuation of his Daddy's feud with Saddam, plain and simple. The majority of the September 11th 2001 terrorists came from Saudi Arabia, but that fact was conveniently glossed over at the time. Bush Jr and his inner circle are war criminals that deserve nothing less than spending the rest of their lives in prison.

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24 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

 

Second Iraq War, perhaps, but the Afghan War was forced on him by 9/11...as was much of the Patriot Act.  Even the 2nd Iraq War had *some* justification.  I didn't like Jr, don't get me wrong, but....

 

Trump incited a movement that has a strong chance to turn into a full-on domestic terrorism movement.  He targeted the core principles of democracy throughout.  His irresponsible dismissal of the coronavirus from the start has probably cost a good 100,000 lives.  The aftermath of his actions will extend DECADES...admittedly, in part because the roots have been there, but he's responsible for feeding, watering, and transplanting all the noxious weeds to make sure they flourish.

 

Trump is not merely the worst President;  he will go down as one of the worst freely chosen leaders ever.  He's not #1;  that's Hitler, hopefully forever;  that is, of course, Hitler.  For US Presidents, IMO he adjusted the scale, the gap between him and anyone else is that big.

 

Yes.

 

Geez, the Patriot Act was beyond terrible but dumping that solely on Bush's doorstep is < insert-polite-term-of-incredulity >.

 

Russ Feingold was the only Senator to vote against it. And the list of Democrats voting for it is like a Who's Who of the 21st century Democrat party including Feinstein, Schumer, Daschel, Sarbanes, Leahy, Biden, Pelosi, etc.

 

https://educate-yourself.org/cn/patriotact20012006senatevote.shtml

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32 minutes ago, Pattern Ghost said:

 

Well, I think Death Tribble would be an OK president, though I would hesitate to give him the launch codes . . .

 

In the run-up to the 2016 election, I think after the Trump-Hillary debates had started, there was a national poll which included a question about who you would trust with the nuclear codes.

 

I forget the exact percentage but something like 11% of people who indicated that they were planning on voting for Trump, in the very same poll, said that they didn't trust him with the nuclear codes.

 

This wasn't two different groups of people, or even the same people on different days. Same people, same day, same poll.

 

I got a lot of mileage out of that poll.

 

 

Obviously, not trusting someone with the launch codes is a completely different matter than trusting someone to be president.

 

So all hail our furry, soothing ball of presidential death!

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Not sure if I believe this but the story is making the rounds that a newly-elected Republican representative says that a number of his colleagues who voted to decertify the election only did so because they were in fear for their lives "or had legitimate concerns about the safety of their families. They felt that that vote would put their families in danger".

 

https://reason.com/2021/01/08/amash-successor-peter-meijer-trumps-deceptions-are-rankly-unfit/

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1 hour ago, Ragitsu said:

 

No. He wanted a continuation of his Daddy's feud with Saddam, plain and simple. The majority of the September 11th 2001 terrorists came from Saudi Arabia, but that fact was conveniently glossed over at the time. Bush Jr and his inner circle are war criminals that deserve nothing less than spending the rest of their lives in prison.

They are not war criminals because they committed no crimes. They declared war and they did it. I understand what you are saying but objectively you are wrong. it's the same as someone saying the world is flat

CES 

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2 hours ago, archer said:

 

Now as far as the bear spray, pepper spray, tear gas, two way radios with earpieces, zip ties, and guns go: for many people that qualifies as a list of random items which people keep within arms reach of their computer rather than unusual gear.

 

I do research as a hobby. 

 

One of the things I've researched is survivalist and prepper culture (I've likely had conversations with at least some of the rioters.)

 

 

How about pipe bombs?  Does your average prepper have a couple of those laying around?

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It's not particularly controversial to say military or ex military or cops or ex cops were there.  That becomes a statistical probability with so many there in a party that largely has them involved.

 

It's a matter of whether they were on the 'front lines' or not.  And whether they will continue back home, and then try this again...

 

How many serial killers were cops/ex cops?  How many murders did they have?

 

How many will try to continue their cause after this?

 

I remember we posted about a group caught somewhere in Europe planning on rounding people up, executing them, and destroying the bodies with acid baths.

 

We are going to see stuff happening in this country.  It's going to be pretty bad no matter what.  😕  The only saving grace is also the curse - we have a lot of federal government investigative power... as long as the federal government deems its worthy to do so.

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41 minutes ago, TrickstaPriest said:

 

 

How many serial killers were cops/ex cops?  How many murders did they have?

 

 

At least two, maybe more. To be a serial killer, you have to kill three people with cooldown periods between. Usually there are sexual undertones to the crime

CES

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16 hours ago, Ranxerox said:

 

How about pipe bombs?  Does your average prepper have a couple of those laying around?

 

Most of them who expressed an opinion and who served in the military claimed to have enough knowledge to make improvised explosives.

 

Since actually making them is a crime, people wouldn't express an opinion on whether they'd already done it. And would have been penalized by a moderator and had the post erased if they talked about it.

 

Several were vocal in saying that if the world as we know it ended, they planned on using IED's to help protect their property (primarily due to the fact that you have to sleep sometime).

 

Some said they'd post signage to warn people while others explicitly said they wouldn't. 

 

I advocated that they instead plant tame blackberries to protect their perimeter. The vines without encouragement will grow 8-10 feet deep and about 8 feet tall. Each vine is 2-3 inches thick at it's base. The tangle of them would be thick enough to be a serious impediment to driving a truck through it unless the truck built up a hell of a lot of momentum first. There's literally not any way for a person on foot to move through the area without maybe 20-30 minutes of cutting and making a heck of a lot of noise.

 

 

Anyway, I got the impression from "the manner in which a few people chose to not talk about whether they'd already made IED's" that they'd already made IED's.

 

Since you asked.

 

What percentage of the rioters brought a pipe bomb?

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9 minutes ago, archer said:

I advocated that they instead plant tame blackberries to protect their perimeter. The vines without encouragement will grow 8-10 feet deep and about 8 feet tall. Each vine is 2-3 inches thick at it's base. The tangle of them would be thick enough to be a serious impediment to driving a truck through it unless the truck built up a hell of a lot of momentum first. There's literally not any way for a person on foot to move through the area without maybe 20-30 minutes of cutting and making a heck of a lot of noise.

 

 

This is interesting and pretty pragmatic

 

 

I will try to be less alarmist.  I strongly suspect the FBI will have their hands full for years with this though.

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2 minutes ago, TrickstaPriest said:

 

This is interesting and pretty pragmatic

 

 

I will try to be less alarmist.  I strongly suspect the FBI will have their hands full for years with this though.

 

 

Probably a boon to the area as well. If you plant even a few acres around the perimeter of your property, you're going to grow more berries than you could possibly harvest yourself, even if you devoted full time to it. That's good for hungry neighbors, hungry passersby, and for bees and other wildlife in the area.

 

And it's a heck of a lot more healthy for people than blowing each other up with IED's or shooting trespassers.

 

I don't personally have a problem with gun ownership but I have a heck of a problem with people shooting each other...which might sound odd but I'll admit to be odd on occasion.

 

 

 

As for the FBI, hopefully they'll arrest and prosecute enough of them quickly enough that the FBI won't have their hands full for years. But I'm usually pessimistic when it comes to the rate of prosecution, whether people will stay in jail while waiting to be prosecuted, and how many other convicts the fanatics will convert while they're being jailed.

 

 

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2 hours ago, csyphrett said:

They are not war criminals because they committed no crimes. They declared war and they did it. I understand what you are saying but objectively you are wrong. it's the same as someone saying the world is flat

 

 

W started a war under false pretenses and openly supported a program of torture and indefinite incarceration without trial.  These are war crimes for which he has been convicted in international court.

 

For what it's worth, I agree with Ragitsu that W still holds the WPE title belt, but only because I never considered Trump a legitimate POTUS.

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24 minutes ago, Old Man said:

 

W started a war under false pretenses and openly supported a program of torture and indefinite incarceration without trial.  These are war crimes for which he has been convicted in international court.

 

 

Let's just be clear: said conviction was by the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission/Tribunal, established in 2007 in Malaysia by its former prime minister to unilaterally investigate alleged war crimes by any nation or party. This commission has no connection to the International Criminal Court and isn't recognized by the United Nations, and its verdicts have no standing under international law, being purely symbolic.

 

I do believe that W truly thinks he acted for the greater good, and genuinely wanted to make life better for people in America and elsewhere in the world. I don't consider him an evil man, but he is an unexceptional man, having taken on a responsibility that was beyond his capacity.

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We do need to keep the discourse civil and rational to avoid drawing the Wrath of Dan. :fear:

 

2 minutes ago, archer said:

j/k

 

Why are liberal politics so confusing?

 

In liberal politics, left is right and right is wrong. But since the left is right and what is right is wrong then the left would seem to be as wrong as it is right.

 

To me it just keeps going back and forth until you can't tell up from down. I think the whole thing is sideways.

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