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21 minutes ago, BoneDaddy said:

If he’s impeached, pence can pardon him. So I’m torn - I’m pretty sure we (all of us on earth) a a bit less safe with him in office, but I long to see him prosecuted. He will doubtless attempt to pardon himself, and it’s definitely about time the pardon power was limited in some way (by judicial fiat) but Pence’s power to pardon him seems plenary to me unless pence is a codefendant.

 

If we don’t prosecute him, government corruption becomes even more open and free of consequences. We clearly need to rein it in a great deal. 

 

Well Pence can pardon Trump but for what?

 

Trump has likely committed so many federal crimes that any competent investigation will be able to find something.

 

In theory, Pence could pardon Trump for everything which might or might not have occurred from January 1st, 1930 through December 31st, 2059. But most pardons aren't THAT thorough.

 

And even if the federal crimes are pardoned, state criminal prosecutions are already ongoing in NY. And Trump committed at least a couple of crimes under Georgia law. 

 

So he will spend jail time if there's a will to prosecute him, regardless of what Pence might or might not do.

 

And frankly, it's not in Pence's best political interests to pardon Trump. Historically, Ford's pardon of Nixon almost cost him the 1976 Republican primaries and was likely a big factor in him losing the general election.

 

In addition to that, if Trump gets pardoned, he or one of his family members are likely to run for president against Pence in 2024 primaries. Trump in jail on federal charges can only help Pence's political prospects.

 

 

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I feel this needs to be shared.  

I refuse to accept that this "era we're in" is a new normal or acceptable in any way. 

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1 hour ago, archer said:

I usually don't read much into symbolism playing to specific groups in American politics...

 

But Trump goes to the Alamo just prior to the planned violent pro-Trump demonstrations in DC and every state capital.

 

So the Alamo is most known for people who were willing to literally fight to the death for a political cause against overwhelming odds. And because they were willing to do that, their side ultimately triumphed.

 

 

I think that goes quite a bit beyond heavy-handed in the symbolism department....

 

Couple of ironies here. One is that Trump is going to Alamo, Texas, which is not where the Alamo is located.

 

The other irony is that the Texicans fighting at the Alamo were technically illegal immigrants. ;)

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4 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

Couple of ironies here. One is that Trump is going to Alamo, Texas, which is not where the Alamo is located.

 

The other irony is that the Texicans fighting at the Alamo were technically illegal immigrants. ;)

 

From what I remember of my Texas history, the immigrants to Texas were invited to move from the US to Texas and were promised protection from Indians and no taxes.

 

A lot of the problems started when the government tried to repossess cannon which had been deployed to discourage Indian attacks. And started imposing taxes.

 

 

A little known Texas fact:

 

The monks who built the Alamo were famous for their creamery which created the province's first ice cream.

 

The treat was so popular in Texas that after the Mexican army overran the creamery, the rallying cry for the Texas forces became "Remember the Ala Mode!"

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I don't see Pence pardoning Trump even if he has the chance.  And for him to have that power, he'd have to accede to a 25th Amendment invocation, then have it agreed to.  That seems unlikely.  Alternately, of course, Trump could resign, but I daresay we all think pigs will fly first.  

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So, forget the 25th Amendment.  Pence sent a letter to Pelosi declining to start the action, and criticizing Pelosi for the resolution requesting that he invoke it. I can see his point about the latter;  the House has its own mechanism, and that is impeachment.

 

So I suspect we'll have the impeachment pass tomorrow.  The question will be, how many Republicans vote in favor.  Does anyone who voted to sustain the objections to sitting the electors, reverse their position now?  That might be the absolutely worst move, tho, to flip at this stage.

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7 hours ago, archer said:

 

From what I remember of my Texas history, the immigrants to Texas were invited to move from the US to Texas and were promised protection from Indians and no taxes.

 

A lot of the problems started when the government tried to repossess cannon which had been deployed to discourage Indian attacks. And started imposing taxes.

 

 

That is so; but Mexico banned further immigration from the United States in 1830, yet American colonists continued to arrive anyway. And the forces at the Alamo included volunteers from the States who had come in support of the revolution.

 

Also, another big point of contention was that Mexico had banned slavery, and thousands of the colonists were slave-owners.

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Its starting to come out that some of the new Republicans were tweeting where Nancy Pelosi were as the Service moved her around. There's talk about excluding them from action in the house and senate

CES 

9 hours ago, BoneDaddy said:

If he’s impeached, pence can pardon him. So I’m torn - I’m pretty sure we (all of us on earth) a a bit less safe with him in office, but I long to see him prosecuted. He will doubtless attempt to pardon himself, and it’s definitely about time the pardon power was limited in some way (by judicial fiat) but Pence’s power to pardon him seems plenary to me unless pence is a codefendant.

 

If we don’t prosecute him, government corruption becomes even more open and free of consequences. We clearly need to rein it in a great deal. 

you can't pardon an impeachment. it has to be rescinded

CES

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That is so; but Mexico banned further immigration from the United States in 1830, yet American colonists continued to arrive anyway. And the forces at the Alamo included volunteers from the States who had come in support of the revolution.

 

Also, another big point of contention was that Mexico had banned slavery, and thousands of the colonists were slave-owners.

 

The whole era was a flusterfubar. The government banned further immigration in 1830 then reinstated immigration after 1833 in response to requests from colonist petitions.

 

The government banned slavery in 1829 except among immigrants from the US who were continued to be allowed to use slaves.

 

General Santa Anna in Mexico led a successful rebellion against the government of Mexico with support of Texans. He had their support because he claimed to be in favor of greater autonomy for states...right up until he wasn't.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Texas-Revolution

 

Their politics almost makes current US politics look reasonable and tidy.

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3 hours ago, archer said:

 

 

The whole era was a flusterfubar. The government banned further immigration in 1830 then reinstated immigration after 1833 in response to requests from colonist petitions.

 

The government banned slavery in 1829 except among immigrants from the US who were continued to be allowed to use slaves.

 

General Santa Anna in Mexico led a successful rebellion against the government of Mexico with support of Texans. He had their support because he claimed to be in favor of greater autonomy for states...right up until he wasn't.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Texas-Revolution

 

Their politics almost makes current US politics look reasonable and tidy.

 

It's actually a fascinating period all around. IIRC, The Texas area was not the only Mexican State that was rebelling  In addition to the Republic of Texas, there was also the Republic of the Rio Grande and the Republic of Yucatán. I maybe muddling the dates of those events but it was close I think. Texas just happened to succeed where others didn't and largely because the United States was ready to back it up and later take it in.

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It's amazing to me how many of the mob seem SURPRISED they can break into a federal building, the capitol no less, break laws, make threats (Implied at least) and end up *Gasp* On No Fly lists, or even just flat out get arrested.  

There are stories and reports of various mob members freaking out because they're discovering the law actually applies to them.

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, csyphrett said:

Its starting to come out that some of the new Republicans were tweeting where Nancy Pelosi were as the Service moved her around. There's talk about excluding them from action in the house and senate

 

From what I saw, it wasn't clear.  They weren't saying where she was, just that she had been moved.

 

Which is still cagey as ef.

 

---

 

You would not believe how many old friends of mine are saying effectively "coup??  that doesn't pass the sniff test.  No way the elite police in DC would let that happen.  lololol if it wasn't trespassing why weren't all the protesters shot???"

 

I swear, OAN/Fox News is utterly culpable now.

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Well, I can't afford to burn bridges but i may have just done that. One of my relatives put up a long eloquent piece by Mike Rowe, and I ..tore into it.

 

I have been SO good at trying not to rile family or friends who have supported Trump. The Coup was the last straw for me I fear. I hope this doesn't bite me in the ass, but I just can't stand the BS any longer.

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Hermit said:

Well, I can't afford to burn bridges but i may have just done that. One of my relatives put up a long eloquent piece by Mike Rowe, and I ..tore into it.

 

I have been SO good at trying not to rile family or friends who have supported Trump. The Coup was the last straw for me I fear. I hope this doesn't bite me in the ass, but I just can't stand the BS any longer.

 

 

 

 

 

My sympathies.

 

Went through the same thing with my father but with just expressing the facts calmly. We spent a frosty six months last year where I got the impression that he was waiting on me to apologize for the facts.

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