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1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

I find this development unsettling. I understand the deterrent intent behind the decision, but these people are still only charged, not convicted. It doesn't matter how good the evidence is, "innocent until proven guilty" and "due process" are still supposed to be cornerstones of the American justice system. Making these people's names and locations public, in this political climate, means they and their loved ones face ostracism, harassment, or worse. It's punishing them before they've been convicted.

 

This smacks a little too much of an "enemies list" for my liking.

 

I hear ya but...this is the age of disinformation, too.  Would you put it past those arrested to claim they've been arrested on spurious charges?  Well, they'll call anything spurious, but charges far above and beyond anything they've actually been charged with.  Also, once an arraignment is made, that information is public.  At least;  I think it's true for an arrest.  The arraignment, tho, for sure.  One can argue that ok, but one doesn't see the government doing this in an organized manner...but I'll go back to the disinformation issue, as well as press interest.  I don't think it can be argued that the press could do this...so figure there are news organizations asking for it.  Now combine that with disinformation......

 

The problem is that core American liberties have been abused with malicious intent.  I concede the risk but I think we need to come to some new balance as well.  CAN we?  Dubious to say the least.

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One other thing I would point out here, while I’m thinking about it:

 

The “enemies list” was oppression BY the State against an ideology, specifically Communism. While he probably didn’t have the names in his pocket, there was a real list and those people were branded, unfairly, enemies of the State.

 

These people are enemies of the State. The self described “Q Shaman” believes that they doing the will of God, fighting against Communism and the Globalists, that the Democrats are satan worshippers and drink the blood of babies. And if you think I’m making that up, please, fact check it. And be appalled.

 

Even with all of that, I have always said “Hey man, you do you. You want to believe some crazy bull—, that’s cool, just don’t ask me to believe it or do anything, you know. Stupid, dangerous or treasonous.” Again, I assure you, these are things I have actually said in reference to this. I respect everyone’s First Amendment Rights. The thing is, they believe that they are doing God’s work, that God and Jesus Christ appointed Trump, and that killing a democratic member of the Legislative Branch is a blow for humanity because the liberals are going to destroy this nation, revoke all of their freedoms and install communism.

 

We won’t even begin to point out that they already largely benefit from Socialism in how wealthier States pay for poorer States, the New Deal installing the social safety net that they are currently using, etc etc. Let it be known that we are operating on two very different sets of facts; actual, provable facts, and... baby eating satanic cultists operating out of a pizza joint’s basement... where said pizza joint has no basement. 

 

The First Amendment does not give you the right to yell “Fire” in a crowded theater, and it doesn’t give you the right to storm the Capitol with zip ties, build a gallows, or scream “Hang Mike Pence.” I think it’s easy to block out just how horrifying Wednesday was. So yes. It is an “enemies list.” A list of people who are self professed and self identified as having the singular goal of tearing down the existing constitutional government, rebelling to stop the peaceful transfer of power to a duly elected President and Vice President, and install their “God Emperor” — who is absolutely bonkers and Simon can wrap my knuckles for saying it — for four more years, or longer.

 

That makes them seditionists, and that means they are, literally, enemies of the State. That the justice system puts the information out publicly only ties to what they were already doing on Social Media.

 

Just something to consider. And if I’m coming off a little stronger than usual (which to some will be a comical statement, but Ive gotten a lot better) it’s because I am a patriot. My country isn’t lines on a map, it’s the promise of the rule of law and a fair shot for anyone who comes here. That promise is long broken and we need to unify to the facts and a way forward that embraces progressive thought tempered by conservative planning. I am angry. I am blind with fury. I do not want mercy.

 

I want justice. 

 

 

—-

 

 

 

7 minutes ago, Old Man said:

 

I mean... is it a little fishy? A little... GOLD fishy?

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I absolutely grasp the desire for vengeance. And I can't dispute whatever measure of punishment the State will choose to mete out to the perpetrators of these acts, after they get their day in court. But the American justice system isn't set up to mete out vengeance. Yes, the names of these alleged rioters (not necessarily their locations) would be a matter of public record; but putting all those details for all of them in one easily accessed spot is a calculation for effect, to intimidate them with the knowledge that they'll be found and punished. It's not impossible that charges against someone in this group could be a mistake, but even if exonerated that public association will follow them forever. That list will always resurface, because what's on the Internet never disappears.

 

It's a slippery slope when the State is given license, in the heat of passion, to choose who to punish through stigmatization before due process. Because if they can do that with impunity to someone, they can do it to anyone.

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21 minutes ago, Old Man said:

 

"While there’s no evidence that Fuentes directly participated in the Capitol riot, something he has so far denied...."

 

 

This is probably a bad point in time to be a grammar Nazi but I don't think Fuentes is actually denying that there's no evidence that he directly participated in the Capitol Hill riot.

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13 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

I absolutely grasp the desire for vengeance. And I can't dispute whatever measure of punishment the State will choose to mete out to the perpetrators of these acts, after they get their day in court. But the American justice system isn't set up to mete out vengeance. Yes, the names of these alleged rioters (not necessarily their locations) would be a matter of public record; but putting all those details for all of them in one easily accessed spot is a calculation for effect, to intimidate them with the knowledge that they'll be found and punished. It's not impossible that charges against someone in this group could be a mistake, but even if exonerated that public association will follow them forever. That list will always resurface, because what's on the Internet never disappears.

 

It's a slippery slope when the State is given license, in the heat of passion, to choose who to punish through stigmatization before due process. Because if they can do that with impunity to someone, they can do it to anyone.

 

I never asked for vengeance.

 

I want justice. By the State. Despite they are seditionists, I want them treated fairly under the law. 

 

Actually, I want them treated like people of color, but that’s another thread. And no one is being punished through stigmatization; this is normal. These are people against whom charges were brought. It’s not just a list of people. They have been arrested and charged with one or more crimes, there’s no stigmatization as you’re framing it, this is the normal process of the law; they stand accused and that — specifically — is public information.

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19 minutes ago, Thia Halmades said:

The “enemies list” was oppression BY the State against an ideology, specifically Communism. While he probably didn’t have the names in his pocket, there was a real list and those people were branded, unfairly, enemies of the State.

 

These people are enemies of the State. The self described “Q Shaman” believes that they doing the will of God, fighting against Communism and the Globalists, that the Democrats are satan worshippers and drink the blood of babies. And if you think I’m making that up, please, fact check it. And be appalled.

 

 

The counter to that?

 

"I say potato, you say po-tah-toh."

Your statement is correct based on the facts you accept.  Others will say they're patriots fighting a corrupt system, and thus it is oppression.  Their 'facts' are completely otherwise.

 

A difference here, and why this is not an enemies list, is that the names being added to the list are, as far as I know, connected to an act of violent insurrection threatening the legitimate officers of state.  The forceful attempts to breach the barriers is more than sufficient to lead a reasonable person to assume that they might assault said officers.  So this isn't about anything they said, this is about something they have done.

It's more comparable to, say, the FBI most wanted lists than to a McCarthy era (or for that matter, Nixon era) enemies list.

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12 minutes ago, Thia Halmades said:

@unclevlad That’s the point I was making — that they have committed crimes, I just wrote it in an illogical order.

 

Not to dispute any of the very legitimate sentiments you raised, but until a court has weighed in they are accused of crimes. The law makes that distinction for a reason -- if the court begins proceedings with a supposition of guilt, a fair trial is impossible.

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Republican Senator Murkowski (AK)

 

Said she believes Trump has committed an impeachable offense.

 

She added that blocking Trump from holding federal office again would be "one of the most consequential actions that we could take" and would be "appropriate ... given what we have seen from his actions and his failure to uphold the Constitution.”

 

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/534368-murkowski-says-it-would-be-appropriate-to-bar-trump-from-holding-office-again

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21 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

Not to dispute any of the very legitimate sentiments you raised, but until a court has weighed in they are accused of crimes. The law makes that distinction for a reason -- if the court begins proceedings with a supposition of guilt, a fair trial is impossible.

 

You can publish the name of an arrested person, and the crimes of which he is accused.  You can publish the name of a person suspected of involvement in a crime too.  Even that is routine, when the subject can't be found and when publishing the name doesn't compromise an active investigation.  What is one of the key pretrial activities?  Jury selection.  One key element there is to reduce the risk of of potential undue influence.  

Can you *imagine* the difficulty in finding an impartial jury if Trump were to face seditious conspiracy charges?  😆 😈 😬

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1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

It's a slippery slope when the State is given license, in the heat of passion, to choose who to punish through stigmatization before due process. Because if they can do that with impunity to someone, they can do it to anyone.

 

It seems to me that as others have said, they've only released information that's in the public record. This information will be gained by public record requests and posted in short order anyway by private parties, given the enormity of the event. By preemptively making the information available, they're being transparent, which is a good thing, considering that conspiracy nuts are being whipped into a frenzy here. There's also an easy way to avoid getting  your asshattery posted on the internet by your government: Don't engage in asshattery. Or open sedition. Or criminal trespass leading to five deaths.

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5 minutes ago, Pattern Ghost said:

 

It seems to me that as others have said, they've only released information that's in the public record. This information will be gained by public record requests and posted in short order anyway by private parties, given the enormity of the event. By preemptively making the information available, they're being transparent, which is a good thing, considering that conspiracy nuts are being whipped into a frenzy here. There's also an easy way to avoid getting  your asshattery posted on the internet by your government: Don't engage in asshattery. Or open sedition. Or criminal trespass leading to five deaths.

 

By the same token, I also agree with LL that this should *not* become the norm in American jurisprudence.  But like everything with Trump, this situation is unprecedented, and I believe warrants the move.

I should put up the Gildor line to Frodo for my sig here...
Go not to the Elves for counsel, for they will say No and Yes.

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23 minutes ago, Pattern Ghost said:

 

It seems to me that as others have said, they've only released information that's in the public record. This information will be gained by public record requests and posted in short order anyway by private parties, given the enormity of the event. By preemptively making the information available, they're being transparent, which is a good thing, considering that conspiracy nuts are being whipped into a frenzy here. There's also an easy way to avoid getting  your asshattery posted on the internet by your government: Don't engage in asshattery. Or open sedition. Or criminal trespass leading to five deaths.

 

Six deaths, including the suicide of Officer Liebengood. I mention this because I know the family personally and it’s an A to A correlation. He was not killed by the rioters, but his death is directly attributable to the events that transpired.

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25 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

By the same token, I also agree with LL that this should *not* become the norm in American jurisprudence.  But like everything with Trump, this situation is unprecedented, and I believe warrants the move.

 

I agree with it not becoming the norm, at least to this extent. It already is, to the extent of readily-searchable lists of jail inmates and arrest records, for example. The full charges, etc., being uploaded seems to be the extra step, and I think in this particular case that's a good thing for transparency.

16 minutes ago, Thia Halmades said:

Six deaths, including the suicide of Officer Liebengood. I mention this because I know the family personally and it’s an A to A correlation. He was not killed by the rioters, but his death is directly attributable to the events that transpired.

 

Condolences.

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3 hours ago, Thia Halmades said:

One other thing I would point out here, while I’m thinking about it:

 

The “enemies list” was oppression BY the State against an ideology, specifically Communism. While he probably didn’t have the names in his pocket, there was a real list and those people were branded, unfairly, enemies of the State.

 

These people are enemies of the State. The self described “Q Shaman” believes that they doing the will of God, fighting against Communism and the Globalists, that the Democrats are satan worshippers and drink the blood of babies. And if you think I’m making that up, please, fact check it. And be appalled.

 

Even with all of that, I have always said “Hey man, you do you. You want to believe some crazy bull—, that’s cool, just don’t ask me to believe it or do anything, you know. Stupid, dangerous or treasonous.” Again, I assure you, these are things I have actually said in reference to this. I respect everyone’s First Amendment Rights. The thing is, they believe that they are doing God’s work, that God and Jesus Christ appointed Trump, and that killing a democratic member of the Legislative Branch is a blow for humanity because the liberals are going to destroy this nation, revoke all of their freedoms and install communism.

 

We won’t even begin to point out that they already largely benefit from Socialism in how wealthier States pay for poorer States, the New Deal installing the social safety net that they are currently using, etc etc. Let it be known that we are operating on two very different sets of facts; actual, provable facts, and... baby eating satanic cultists operating out of a pizza joint’s basement... where said pizza joint has no basement. 

 

The First Amendment does not give you the right to yell “Fire” in a crowded theater, and it doesn’t give you the right to storm the Capitol with zip ties, build a gallows, or scream “Hang Mike Pence.” I think it’s easy to block out just how horrifying Wednesday was. So yes. It is an “enemies list.” A list of people who are self professed and self identified as having the singular goal of tearing down the existing constitutional government, rebelling to stop the peaceful transfer of power to a duly elected President and Vice President, and install their “God Emperor” — who is absolutely bonkers and Simon can wrap my knuckles for saying it — for four more years, or longer.

 

That makes them seditionists, and that means they are, literally, enemies of the State. That the justice system puts the information out publicly only ties to what they were already doing on Social Media.

 

Just something to consider. And if I’m coming off a little stronger than usual (which to some will be a comical statement, but Ive gotten a lot better) it’s because I am a patriot. My country isn’t lines on a map, it’s the promise of the rule of law and a fair shot for anyone who comes here. That promise is long broken and we need to unify to the facts and a way forward that embraces progressive thought tempered by conservative planning. I am angry. I am blind with fury. I do not want mercy.

 

I want justice. 

 

 

—-

 

 

 

 

I mean... is it a little fishy? A little... GOLD fishy?

Like I tell my coworkers:

There is conspiracy, and then there is "CONSPIRACY"

-insert alien history weird hair guy's hand wave-

CES 

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2 hours ago, Thia Halmades said:

 

Six deaths, including the suicide of Officer Liebengood. I mention this because I know the family personally and it’s an A to A correlation. He was not killed by the rioters, but his death is directly attributable to the events that transpired.

 

I'll accept a moral responsibility, but I do not believe a legal responsibility can be supported.  It is clear that 2 deaths...the officer from the blunt force trauma, and the woman shot attempting to breach the barricade...can be considered as part of the results of the riot.  The other 3 are listed as medical emergencies;  looking...one is reported as a heart attack.  Where it happened, I'm not sure.  I'm not trying to trivialize these deaths, BTW, just thinking about the legal implications.  The 2 deaths in the Capitol seem straightforward applications of the felony murder rule.  Considering it's a crime on Federal property, they get jurisdiction, and felony murder is first degree murder under Federal law.  Ergo, yes, the death penalty is probably in play...and life imprisonment almost certainly is.

 

If the other deaths can be well-connected to the criminal breach...ok, we can consider more counts.  If not, I'd rather the prosecutors take the win that's sitting there to be taken, because adding potentially shakier charges probably won't materially impact the potential sentences.

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News reports on the heart attack was on the capitol grounds. I can't remember the victim's name which is bad because I looked this up last week but apparently he was in the press when the house invasion started. It was undetermined if he was trying to get into the building with the rest of the rioters, demonstrating, or trying to get out of the crowd before they broke in.

 

There may be just cause to charge rioters with manslaughter for his death as a complication but I don't know how that would work.

 

Looking up things on google says the other two victims dont have a clear cause of death.  Roseanne Boyland has two conflicting accounts that are being investigated. The authorities told her family that she collapsed in the rotunda. Her friend said she was trampled by the crowd when they ran up on the police barricade.

 

Ben Phillips apparently had a stroke while trying to sell his Trumperoos. The cause of death is not clear. 

CES     

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@unclevlad I just want to go on the record saying “I agree with you that in terms of a legal case, take the win without muddying the water,” but I also want to point out, separately, if you will, that this is causal. Again, for the record: I am agreeing with your conclusion, but holding the line that this was related.

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40 minutes ago, Cygnia said:

It seems obvious since someone damaged the panic buttons in Presley's office ahead of the riot. Someone on the inside had to do that. I expect before this is over, the FBI will be making arrests on people in the Capitol building itself

CES 

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