Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[Pattern Ghost]

49 minutes ago, Lectryk said:

Ah, excuse me, maybe I was projecting my need for accountability.  

 

That's OK, so was I.

 

I think they need to be charging everyone involved in the break in with murder for at least two of the deaths. If someone robs a store and a death results, the get away driver is also charged. I'm not so sure that the boneheads on the ground can be charged with treason vs. sedition (or if sedition is an actual charge, even, IAANL and don't have time to play one on the internet), but those who've sworn an oath certainly should be.

[archer]

1 minute ago, Pattern Ghost said:

 

That's OK, so was I.

 

I think they need to be charging everyone involved in the break in with murder for at least two of the deaths. If someone robs a store and a death results, the get away driver is also charged. I'm not so sure that the boneheads on the ground can be charged with treason vs. sedition (or if sedition is an actual charge, even, IAANL and don't have time to play one on the internet), but those who've sworn an oath certainly should be.

 

They're, by the legal definition, engaged in a seditionist conspiracy. 20 years maximum sentence on that charge alone.

 

Treason would be almost impossible to prove unless it could be proved that they were knowingly working as tools of the Russian government to overthrow the US government and give control to Trump.

[TrickstaPriest]

2 hours ago, archer said:

Other people can say that and mean, "See? The Capitol Hill protests weren't very bad. With the BLM protests, they were burning down police stations and stores. We should have the right to free speech too if they're going to be doing things that bad." That's worlds apart in meaning.

 

 

This was definitely 'I mean, the capitol hill thing wasn't nearly as bad as those BLM people'.  😕

[Pariah]

Donald Trump supporters: Definitive proof that you can't spell "Patriot" without "Riot". 

[Pattern Ghost]

1 hour ago, archer said:

Treason would be almost impossible to prove unless it could be proved that they were knowingly working as tools of the Russian government to overthrow the US government and give control to Trump.

 

18 US Code § 2381:

Quote

Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

 

The bolded part: Making war on your own country is treason. Foreign powers need not be involved.

[Lectryk]

1 hour ago, Pattern Ghost said:

 

That's OK, so was I.

 

I think they need to be charging everyone involved in the break in with murder for at least two of the deaths. If someone robs a store and a death results, the get away driver is also charged. I'm not so sure that the boneheads on the ground can be charged with treason vs. sedition (or if sedition is an actual charge, even, IAANL and don't have time to play one on the internet), but those who've sworn an oath certainly should be.

 

The people who were giving tours have a fig leaf - they were just showing constituents around, and 'I didn't know they would do what they did with the knowledge' (unless someone has been boneheaded enough to say something consistently enough to establish a pattern - and I don't think there's a modern day Patrick Henry in the lot) will cover a lot of issues for any juror wanting to to let them off of treason - plus, where will you find enough people to form an unbiased/tainted jury pool to begin with?

 

At least felony murder has the advantage of a clear crime and lower burdens of proof and furtherance.

 

Believe me, the last thing I want is to give 'The Movement' martyrs like Ruby Rudge, Waco, etc did, but these people have got to understand the U.S will go Liam Neeson on them (I WILL find you, I WILL .. etc) let them really feel what happens when they kick something so much bigger than they are.  

[archer]

18 minutes ago, Pattern Ghost said:

 

18 US Code § 2381:

 

The bolded part: Making war on your own country is treason. Foreign powers need not be involved.

 

Thanks, I understand the constitutional point.

 

https://constitution.findlaw.com/article3/annotation24.html#1  - the section entitled Levying War and the one entitled Burr Trial.

 

The precedent threshold that a prosecution would have to meet is that it would need to prove that the accused conspired to commit treason then that person would have to levy war and personally engage in hostilities.

 

And the Supreme Court has stated "the crime of treason should not be extended by construction to doubtful cases''. So it needs to be indisputable and not a reach by the prosecution.

 

Yeah, I think there's some who have left enough social media posts saying that they're going to DC to overthrow the election then were caught on videotape committing acts of violence.

 

But you aren't going to prove it for people who aren't on record as saying they're traveling to DC to overthrow the government even if you have them on tape beating a policeman.

 

And you aren't going to prove it for people who said they're going to do it but they showed up with no record of them personally committing acts of violence. Trespassing, theft, and vandalism certainly shouldn't be enough if going solely by the established standard.

 

That guy in the crowd who slowly followed a Capitol Hill policeman as he retreated up the stairs? Probably not by the established standard even though he was charged with crimes against the officer.

 

Now a lower court could in theory convict him of treason, the appeals go up the chain of courts, and the Supreme Court decides to uphold the decision, which would establish a new standard. But to enlarge how the country convicts in treason cases is a very big thing to do. I don't see it happening, absent further provocations which might further sour the court's attitude toward arguably treasonous scum.

[Lord Liaden]

52 minutes ago, Pattern Ghost said:

 

18 US Code § 2381:

 

The bolded part: Making war on your own country is treason. Foreign powers need not be involved.

 

Whether this counts as "making war" is at best highly debatable, legally.

[Pattern Ghost]

3 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

Whether this counts as "making war" is at best highly debatable, legally.

 

Trying to overthrow the government is usually considered an act of war. Tomato-tomahto.

 

 

[Pariah]

I'm curious, why do these folks think that Donald Trump won't throw them under the bus the way he has with so many others?

 

‘I’m facing a prison sentence’: US Capitol rioters plead with Trump for pardons

 

This is the problem. When leaders are not held accountable, their followers don't think they should be either.

[Pattern Ghost]

From some random website :

 

Quote

 

Levying War

Levying war isn’t limited to formally declaring war. It includes any forcible opposition to the execution of a public law. Such “forcible opposition” ordinarily requires actual use of force by multiple people with the common purpose of preventing some law from being enforced. Weapons aren’t always required; sheer numbers can be enough.

 

 

*It's from legal publisher NOLO. Whether that says anything or not about the quality, I don't know.

[unclevlad]

And it fits the definition of sedition, and seditious conspiracy, perfectly.  I also agree that this didn't come close to what I'd call "levying war."  No one's going to be charged with treason.

 

Trying to overthrow the government is NOT an act of war.  It is an act of insurrection.  That one's not even close.

 

Besides, for the worst provocateurs, you've got seditious conspiracy and felony murder.  Felony murder is itself a death penalty offense.  

 

Might sound like we're being pedantic but this is law.  Words have very specific legal meanings, and tests for what qualifies for certain offenses.  This is not treason.

[Lord Liaden]

15 minutes ago, Pattern Ghost said:

 

Trying to overthrow the government is usually considered an act of war. Tomato-tomahto.

 

 

 

Legally, no. Open and declared conflict between the armed forces of two or more states or nations, is the legal definition of war. The actions of these people could certainly be argued to be a rebellion or insurrection.

 

I don't like to sound nit-picky, but the problems the US is experiencing now have been complicated by people throwing terms around without clarifying their literal meaning. And literal meaning is vitally important in American jurisprudence, which strives to restrict the possibility of abuse of the law by setting a clear standard for a particular charge to be met.

 

EDIT: Also, what unclevlad said.

[archer]

17 minutes ago, Pariah said:

I'm curious, why do these folks think that Donald Trump won't throw them under the bus the way he has with so many others?

 

‘I’m facing a prison sentence’: US Capitol rioters plead with Trump for pardons

 

This is the problem. When leaders are not held accountable, their followers don't think they should be either.

 

They've willfully ignored everything about Donald Trump since spring of 2015 unless the facts just happened to fit in with what they want to think about Donald Trump at any particular moment.

 

If you go on to social media right now, you'll find posts from real US citizens saying "Trump is the best president the US has ever had", "Trump is a good Christian man, why are they persecuting him?", "Donald Trump is the most honest president the US has ever had".

 

I'd wager that 90% of them aren't aware that Trump has ever thrown anyone under the bus and that the other 10% only think Trump throws people under the bus because they did something to deserve it.

 

So why would any of them even vaguely suspect that there's the slightest possibility that Trump would throw them under the bus?

 

I haven't tried to go on to Parler but I wouldn't be shocked if the people who marched from the Trump rally to Capitol Hill were telling each other, at this very moment, how that they saw Trump right there in the crowd next to them marching to the Capitol, just like he told them that he was going to while standing at the podium.

[Pariah]

Denial: It's not just a river in Egypt.

 

Compare and contrast with Joe Biden, who announced today that his science advisor will be part of his Cabinet. If I saw no other advantage to Joe Biden than that--and Heaven knows I would have to be in pretty serious denial not to have seen any other advantage-- that would be enough.

[archer]

I hesitate to post this because I don't think the author's evaluations are wholly correct when it comes to things outside the Republican party itself. But without further ado...

 

QAnon is Destroying the Republican Party From Within

by Ben Sasse

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/01/conspiracy-theories-will-doom-republican-party/617707/

[Pattern Ghost]

1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

Legally, no. Open and declared conflict between the armed forces of two or more states or nations, is the legal definition of war.

 

Legally, yes.

[Pattern Ghost]

Of course, IANAL. The fact remains that there are a slew of lesser offenses along the same lines, and they probably exist for a reason. Treason's rarely been charged in the history of the country. I just really want to see all these so-and-so's lined up for a firing squad. Here's a more rational article from Vox that has a rundown of the lesser versions:

 

https://www.vox.com/22217973/13-federal-criminal-laws-trump-mob-insurrection-capitol-assault-rebellion-conspiracy

[unclevlad]

Oh, for sure.  A segment absolutely should be facing seditious conspiracy;  I would think anyone who was actively involved in the breach of the building, or to the chambers.  I'm kinda spitballing so this won't be comprehensive.  Anyone threatening a Capitol Police officer while assisting the advance through the Capitol could count.  I would also say that the felony murder charges could apply to any of them as well, whether seditious conspiracy holds up or not.

 

If they came in later, or if it couldn't be shown that they were expressly violent, there should still be quite a few fairly significant, Federal felonies they can be charged with.  Don't for a minute think that, let's say, 2 years in prison will be a mild sentence.  In many, probably most, cases, this will wreck their egos, relationships, job (and job prospects), finances...the rest of their lives.  I'm not saying that to engender sympathy for them;  I'm saying it to calm the bloodlust.   

 

I don't think Trump will issue any pardons for this...but it is Trump, so who knows.  If he does issue pardons to anyone looking at anything serious or noteworthy, or issues any large number of pardons...this might be the one somewhat foreseeable thing he could do, that's totally within his prerogatives, that'd ensure his impeachment, and by a huge margin.

 

EDIT:  these are the charges filed against the QAnon Shaman, and the max penalties.  NOTE:  The indictment is here:
https://www.justice.gov/opa/page/file/1352916/download

and I'm using the web to track the specific offenses

 

--Civil Disorder, 5 years

--obstruction of an official proceeding, 20 years (!!!!)

--2 different counts of Entering and Remaining in a Restricted Building, 10 years (each because significant bodily injury resulted...doesn't even need to connect to felony murder)

--2 different counts of violent entry into a Capitol building...if there's no weapons issues, these are 6 months each, but can be escalated to 5 years each.

https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/LSB/LSB10564

 

But we're looking at *45 years* potentially.  For charges that the offenders basically incriminated themselves or others by their social media circus.

 

Does that help, PG?  

 

[Sociotard]

It seems a pillow salesman went to the White House with thoughts about Martial Law. We know because he left his notes visible, like a bad poker player. Then he was very open about his discussion on Facebook and with interviewers.

 

 

After White House Meeting with Trump, Mike Lindell Calls for Military Coup on Facebook - The Bulwark

[BNakagawa]

3 hours ago, Pariah said:

I'm curious, why do these folks think that Donald Trump won't throw them under the bus the way he has with so many others?

 

‘I’m facing a prison sentence’: US Capitol rioters plead with Trump for pardons

 

This is the problem. When leaders are not held accountable, their followers don't think they should be either.

 

A fish rots from the head.

[Old Man]

5 hours ago, archer said:

Treason would be almost impossible to prove unless it could be proved that they were knowingly working as tools of the Russian government to overthrow the US government and give control to Trump.

 

Who said anything about Russians?  Last I checked the Confederacy and Nazi Germany were formally declared enemies of the United States.  And I reckon participating in a direct attack on Congress might violate an armistice provision or two.  But, IANAL.

[Old Man]

4 hours ago, Lectryk said:

 

The people who were giving tours have a fig leaf - they were just showing constituents around, and 'I didn't know they would do what they did with the knowledge' (unless someone has been boneheaded enough to say something consistently enough to establish a pattern -

 

Just showing constituents around when all Capitol tours have been banned since March?  And I'd be interested to learn what percentage of "tourists" found themselves roaming around inside the Capitol again on January 6.

[Old Man]

Apologies for the biased source, but:

 

Don’t Prosecute Gotham’s Supervillains for Their Latest Scheme -- Any attempt to bring the Joker to justice is likely to fail or backfire

[Hugh Neilson]

If I were a lawyer litigating these cases (and I'm neither), I would look for the most serious charge I thought there was any chance of making stick (let's pick felony murder, on the basis that the death penalty is a possibility) and file on the basis that we will be seeking the absolute maximum penalty.  Then give those charged some time to let that sink in and talk to their own legal counsel.  My guess is that it's not likely, but not impossible, the death penalty could be applied.

 

Once a sufficient period of time has passed, offer a plea bargain.  Maybe it's a plea bargain to accept conviction on a charge less likely to succeed (maybe that is sedition) with a sentence at the more modest end of the spectrum, but still likely to be scary to anyone thinking about similar action in the future (let's say 5 years in prison).

 

Now, put yourself in the position of that fellow whose picture is all over the web showing he was there and engaged in illegal activity.  Do you throw the dice and risk a death sentence, or accept a 5 year sentence (knowing it could be more than 5 years to go through the Court process if you don't take the plea bargain)?