Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[Starlord]

Ray Fisher has been complaining about his treatment on Justice League for over a year now, there was apparent a poorly handled investigation into Whedon, Geoff Johns and other higher ups.

[Matt the Bruins]

Deleted because I was getting too off topic.

[Pariah]

Impeachment: Where a politician faces trial before a jury of his accomplices. 

[archer]

Military officials overseeing the authorization process to launch nuclear weapons were unaware on January 6 that then-Vice President Mike Pence's military aide carrying the "nuclear football" was potentially in danger as rioters got close during the violent Capitol insurrection, according to a defense official...

 

The vice president is always accompanied by a backup of the "football," which contains the equipment to carry out orders to launch a nuclear strike. It must be ready at all times and is identical to what the president carries, in case he becomes incapacitated...

 

US Strategic Command became aware of the gravity of the incident after seeing a video played at the Senate impeachment trial Wednesday...

 

"As the rioters reached the top of the stairs, they were within 100 feet of where the vice president was sheltering with his family"

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/02/11/politics/military-officials-were-unaware-pence-nuclear-football-riot/index.html

 

It's stories like this that make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, isn't it?

 

I know in theory that Pence's football wasn't active because Trump's was.

 

But I wonder if Trump was unstable enough at the time to have cooked off a couple of nukes at his list of favorite targets then try to cover things up with the cronies he'd just appointed to run the Defense Department and intelligence departments. And blame the whole incident on the rioters while declaring martial law throughout the country.

[TrickstaPriest]

6 minutes ago, archer said:

But I wonder if Trump was unstable enough at the time to have cooked off a couple of nukes at his list of favorite targets then try to cover things up with the cronies he'd just appointed to run the Defense Department and intelligence departments. And blame the whole incident on the rioters while declaring martial law throughout the country.

 

I won't speculate, but I will say having that football stolen would be a security breach unlike anything the country has ever faced.

 

You'll be happy to know one of my friends still says that "The capitol hill events don't pass the sniff test.  Couldn't have happened"

 

I regularly see comparisons of it and "democrats burning down cities"

 

Because a Target on fire is equally as bad as nearly having one of the vice presidents assassinated by a mob stirred up by a president attempting to permanently seize power?

[Lord Liaden]

12 minutes ago, archer said:

But I wonder if Trump was unstable enough at the time to have cooked off a couple of nukes at his list of favorite targets then try to cover things up with the cronies he'd just appointed to run the Defense Department and intelligence departments. And blame the whole incident on the rioters while declaring martial law throughout the country.

 

That would have been a very clever, imaginative and bold adaptation to a rapidly evolving situation. Hence completely beyond Donald Trump.

 

Don't get me wrong, IMO he's selfish, ruthless and desperate enough to have tried it if he thought of it. Just not smart or brave enough.

[TrickstaPriest]

The fact of the matter is, right wing media has already convinced more than half of republican voters that the capitol hill riot wasn't a riot, that trump wasn't responsible in any way, that dem hysteria is a callous attempt to employ mass censorship, and the talk about google cutting right wing media voices is far more important than any conversation about what 'probably didn't happen'.

 

It's been a single month and I already see friends talking in private about the evil dems censoring them out and how someone has to do something about it. (edit: in that vague way that conspiracy peoples who don't want to actively engage in something but are totally convinced that it should be dealt with)

[archer]

6 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

That would have been a very clever, imaginative and bold adaptation to a rapidly evolving situation. Hence completely beyond Donald Trump.

 

Don't get me wrong, IMO he's selfish, ruthless and desperate enough to have tried it if he thought of it. Just not smart or brave enough.

 

He didn't have to respond innovatively to a rapidly evolving situation. He had plenty of time to plan it out step by step.

 

He was tweeting out the importance of Jan 6th to his followers at least as early as the beginning of December, that I know of and I didn't even follow his twitter feed.

 

He was talking about possible methods of and excuses for imposing martial law long before the election ever happened.

 

 

[Old Man]

57 minutes ago, TrickstaPriest said:

The fact of the matter is, right wing media has already convinced more than half of republican voters that the capitol hill riot wasn't a riot, that trump wasn't responsible in any way, that dem hysteria is a callous attempt to employ mass censorship, and the talk about google cutting right wing media voices is far more important than any conversation about what 'probably didn't happen'.

 

It's been a single month and I already see friends talking in private about the evil dems censoring them out and how someone has to do something about it. (edit: in that vague way that conspiracy peoples who don't want to actively engage in something but are totally convinced that it should be dealt with)

 

Yes.  However we got into this mess, we're not going to get out of it unless someone breaks up the media bubbles.  And I don't see that happening.

[TrickstaPriest]

3 minutes ago, Old Man said:

Yes.  However we got into this mess, we're not going to get out of it unless someone breaks up the media bubbles.  And I don't see that happening.

 

Brutally big lawsuits.  To start.

 

Which means maintaining some semblance of sanity in the justice system.  The day our major government functions or legal system starts acting in as blatant a partisan manner is the day this country is over.

 

Pay attention to your local elections, pressure your lawmakers, and all that crap.  Just as a minimum to start.

 

The other necessary angle is to make sure the desperate have food on the table.  They eat this crap up because they are afraid.  But biting a hand that is helping them is less likely.  So outreach to red regions in getting them out of their effed situations.

[unclevlad]

12 minutes ago, Old Man said:

 

Yes.  However we got into this mess, we're not going to get out of it unless someone breaks up the media bubbles.  And I don't see that happening.

 

Yeah, because these 'bubbles' are force field domes powered by multiple ZPMs.

[Lord Liaden]

1 hour ago, archer said:

 

He didn't have to respond innovatively to a rapidly evolving situation. He had plenty of time to plan it out step by step.

 

He was tweeting out the importance of Jan 6th to his followers at least as early as the beginning of December, that I know of and I didn't even follow his twitter feed.

 

He was talking about possible methods of and excuses for imposing martial law long before the election ever happened.

 

 

 

But all the Capitol Hill dominoes didn't fall into place until the last moment: the rioters breaking into the capitol, Pence with the nuclear codes being in a vulnerable position. Yes, Trump could have planned out an entire strategy, had his agents planted to manipulate the rioters, to take out Pence and blame it on them, to manufacture a security threat great enough to declare martial law. But that would have required foresight, discipline, and courage, none of which Donald Trump has.

 

But he didn't even need to do that much. Imagine how things might have turned out if Trump just did what he promised his followers he'd do, walk with them to the Capitol. The President of the United States standing with them facing down Congress. Had he been a real leader prepared to seize the moment, that's what he would have done. Luckily for democracy, he has no leadership qualities.

[Lord Liaden]

This line came out of a video by Beau of the Fifth Column on a completely unrelated subject, but it's too good not to quote: "At the end of every episode of Scooby Doo, what happens? They rip the mask off of that thing, whatever that thing is, and it's Congress. Some old white dude doing something behind the scenes for money." 

[archer]

Summarizing the President's defense team today:

 

"Since the glove fits, you must acquit!"

[Old Man]

2 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

But all the Capitol Hill dominoes didn't fall into place until the last moment: the rioters breaking into the capitol, Pence with the nuclear codes being in a vulnerable position. Yes, Trump could have planned out an entire strategy, had his agents planted to manipulate the rioters, to take out Pence and blame it on them, to manufacture a security threat great enough to declare martial law. But that would have required foresight, discipline, and courage, none of which Donald Trump has.

 

Sorry, but I am really effing tired of politicians being given the benefit of Hanlon's Razor.  Trump may not be a gifted project planner but the evidence that the coup was premeditated is overwhelming.  Just off the top of my head, Trump:

• Spent a year sending inciteful tweets with violent language about the "Trump Army", "dead Democrats", and exercising 2nd Amendment rights
• Openly supported armed Michigan protestors who stormed the Michigan state capitol and planned to execute Gov. Whitmer
• Constantly groomed his supporters that "The only way we’re going to lose this election is if the election is rigged"
• Openly supported a Texas Trump caravan that tried to force a Biden campaign bus off the road
• Publicly instructed the Proud Boys to "Stand back and stand by"
• Knew for certain that he'd lost the election by Nov. 10
• Constantly insisted after the election that he didn't lose and that the election was being "stolen"
• Appointed an acting Secretary of Defense who deauthorized the DC National Guard commander from being able to respond to requests for assistance
• Hosted the leader of the Proud Boys at the White House in December
• Held meetings at the White House to discuss the possibility of imposing martial law
• Had his campaign set up a million dollar rally on Jan. 6, at the same time as the Electoral College certification vote, two months after the campaign had lost the election
• Sent Donald Jr. and Rudy to meet with conservative CEOs the night of Jan. 5 to warn them what would happen the next day

And that's just what happened before Jan. 6.  Seriously, anyone who has not yet seen the impeachment videos presented on the Senate floor this week should find them and watch them.  It is incredibly damning to see all the evidence put together with a timeline that makes it abundantly clear that Trump prepared and launched a stochastic coup with the full intention of capturing or (ideally) killing the Vice President and democratic members of Congress.

 

Honestly most people don't realize how close he came to succeeding.  The insurrectionists missed the EC ballot boxes by minutes.  They missed Pence by seconds.  Had he been killed, the EC certification could not have happened.  What would have happened then?

[Lord Liaden]

Okay, to be clear, I fully accept that the coup attempt was premeditated by Trump. I was only responding to the specific scenario archer had suggested. I don't believe Trump has the brains or guts to have pulled that scenario off. But the overall failure of the coup attempt, like every other Trump failure, was mostly due to his own incompetence. Had he been competent, while I believe the attempt would ultimately have failed, the situation would have been a lot worse.

 

But Pence being killed would not have stopped certification by the Electoral College. The vice-president's role as supervisor of the count is ceremonial, as Pence tried to explain to Trump. He had no power to affect the outcome, it's a formality. Everyone already knew what the count was. Yes, there would have been procedural confusion to sort out, but it wouldn't have stopped Biden's assuming the presidency.

[Pariah]

Had Pence perished in the coup attempt (let's call it what it was), wouldn't that duty then have fallen to the next person in line for succession, i.e., Nancy Pelosi?

[Old Man]

39 minutes ago, Pariah said:

Had Pence perished in the coup attempt (let's call it what it was), wouldn't that duty then have fallen to the next person in line for succession, i.e., Nancy Pelosi?

 

I'm not sure there is a line of succession for the vice president.  I think in that case the president would appoint a successor subject to Senate confirmation.

 

At any rate, Nancy was also at the top of the mob's hit list.

[archer]

1 hour ago, Pariah said:

Had Pence perished in the coup attempt (let's call it what it was), wouldn't that duty then have fallen to the next person in line for succession, i.e., Nancy Pelosi?

 

25th Amendment Section 2. - Whenever there is a vacancy in the office of the Vice President, the President shall nominate a Vice President who shall take office upon confirmation by a majority vote of both Houses of Congress.

 

edit:

 

Twelfth Amendment - The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted;

 

 

If you're reading it strictly, the electoral college count can't continue until the office of VP is filled.

 

Since Trump wouldn't appoint a VP the House and Senate would agree to, Trump's term in office would have expired. Then on January 20th, the Speaker of the House would have been sworn in as president.

 

I'd assume they'd restart the electoral college count after Pelosi appointed a VP and he/she was confirmed. But the Constitution itself is murky about exactly what should happen in that case. (Another edit: in theory, Pelosi saying "Nope, I'm sworn in now for the next four years" would be just as valid of a reading of the text as her saying "OK, now we can count the electoral votes from the last election". In practice, it'd be almost impossible for her to get anything done if she refused to step aside. But it'd be functionally impossible to get rid of her short of the Supreme Court volunteering to jump into the middle of a murky messy explosive situation.)

 

There's no scenario that it works out for Trump without him declaring martial law, perhaps disbanding the government, and refusing to vacate the office.

[pawsplay]

If the EC count had been stopped, then like clockwork Nancy Pelosi actually would have become President on inauguration day.

[TrickstaPriest]

35 minutes ago, pawsplay said:

If the EC count had been stopped, then like clockwork Nancy Pelosi actually would have become President on inauguration day.

 

Yeah but Trump would have said "See?  They seized power unfairly even though the VP is dead so technically no one else can become president!  It's unconstitutional!  Now we have to raise arms" yadda yadda.  I mean, when you have so many literally believing every word out of his mouth over taking 5 minutes to actually read the constitution...

[pawsplay]

Nonetheless the Joint Chiefs issued a statement on orderly succession, it would have happened.

[Starlord]

Bruce Castor Confuses Steelers QB Ben Roethlisberger With Georgia Secretary Of State Brad Raffensperger During Trump Impeachment Trial

[Lord Liaden]

It appears Trump found a defense attorney as addled as he is. Perhaps by this point his reputation is too toxic for anyone sharper to take him as a client.

[Old Man]

1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

It appears Trump found a defense attorney as addled as he is. Perhaps by this point his reputation is too toxic for anyone sharper to take him as a client.

He does tend to throw his lawyers under the bus, and not pay them.