Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[archer]

On 7/4/2021 at 5:51 AM, wcw43921 said:

A Symbol Of Unity That May No Longer Unite

 

How about it, all you US HEROes?  Do any of you fly the US Flag?

 

I don't. 

 

There's a hell of a lot of protocols you're supposed to follow in order to do it right. 

 

1) I refuse to do things wrong.

2) I drop things a lot and if your flag touches the ground you're supposed to buy or sew a new one. I don't have the money to buy an endless supply of flags and I'm worse with needles than I am with holding things without dropping them.

 

I consider myself to be very patriotic.

 

For example, I refuse to say the Pledge of Allegiance because I refuse to vow to be a servant of the government. We fought a whole Revolutionary War so that the government would serve the people rather than it being the other way around.

[Lectryk]

32 minutes ago, archer said:

For example, I refuse to say the Pledge of Allegiance because I refuse to vow to be a servant of the government. We fought a whole Revolutionary War so that the government would serve the people rather than it being the other way around.

 

Which part of the pledge do you think obligates you to be a servant of the government?  I can't think of a part that does, so I'm asking.  Even web searches (does the pledge of allegiance make you a servant to the government) that should have brought some hits, don't come up with anything after going 7 pages deep into 6,800,000 returns.  It just got further and further away from the topic.  

[TrickstaPriest]

7 hours ago, Lectryk said:

How is it not incentivized by the people?  We just had an election, and changed government.  I'd say the former administration didn't do a proper job, and the people made their choice and lack of happiness clear - they fired the group they weren't happy with.  If Trump wasn't incentivized by the upcoming election, why did he do everything he did to curry favor with his voters?  If our system doesn't incentivize politicans in general, why do they work so hard and boast so much about everything they do for their constituency?  Why do they do so many non-explicitly job related activities to get re-elected?  Why do administrations try for big wins on initiatives/laws/whatever?   Why is there so much pork doled out to states and districts if there's no incentive?  The reward (incentive, if you will) for politicans here would be re-election and being able to continue running/leading the government

 

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/congressional_job_approval-903.html

 

30% approval of Congress has held improved recently, but it's a horribly low approval rating.

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_inequality

 

Global inequality has decreased, but a massive gulf widened in the US in the last 50 years.  Even my ex-coworkers, all cybersecurity professionals, are struggling under stress, income, healthcare, in one of the hottest growth technical fields in the world.

 

I don't have the time to break down how much pork actually makes a difference in terms of mouths fed, I'm studying for my third cert in a row this summer to try and incentivize my continued employment. 😕

 

edit: I feel like our politicians are more incentivized to work with lobbyists of major businesses, regardless of the harm or conflict of interest.  Recent news brings it to mind.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2021/07/02/exxon-climate-change-video-leaked/

 

I don't disagree that politicians spend a lot of time trying to get big wins passed to encourage citizenry, but we are still literally dying as a species and almost everyone I know and have ever met is struggling to keep things together financially... so I take those big wins with a grain of salt.  I've waited literally my entire life to see a politician start to take Global Warming at all seriously.  I'm still not certain if the current administration does.

 

So I guess that is the question then?   How does one demonstrate that our current government structure is incentivized to help its citizens?  Or that it is not?  I can't compile the amount of bills and the comparison of relative effects of such bills, weighted against things like Citizens United.  And those are soft value comparisons sometimes, so how do you want to weigh it?

 

Maybe when I have time again... some year, I'll compile the big gains and big losses in laws and actions over the last 60-80 years.  Until then...

[Iuz the Evil]

18 hours ago, wcw43921 said:

A Symbol Of Unity That May No Longer Unite

 

How about it, all you US HEROes?  Do any of you fly the US Flag?

Yes, and I celebrate the 4th of July. It’s a special day in my household, and I feel the patriotism deeply. Just finished watching fireworks in Old Sacramento, because the majority of them were canceled over in Napa and the nearby areas.

[Tom]

On 7/4/2021 at 6:51 AM, wcw43921 said:

A Symbol Of Unity That May No Longer Unite

 

How about it, all you US HEROes?  Do any of you fly the US Flag?

I’ve never flown the flag, but I’ve also never put up yard signs  and I don’t plaster my car with bumper stickers either.  I’m just not the sort of person who advertises much about myself. 
 

Having said that, I’m inclined to argue that as a symbol the US flag has become too diluted and used as a symbol of division too often to be considered a symbol of unity anymore.  I haven’t read the linked article because I’m disinclined to create yet one more account to do so, but I’ve spent a lot of time on the road for the past years and the number of (what I can only consider to be) bastardized US flags being flown in conjunction with (or in lieu of) “real” US flags is disturbing.  
 

Flags with a blue (or red, or green, or some combination of the two or three) line dividing it in half and the black and white variant.

 

Flags with the stars removed from the blue field and replaced with “2A” and the 2nd amendment printed on the white stripes. 
 

Flags with the standard 50 stars replaced  by a circle of stars surrounding the Roman numeral “III”. 
 

Flags that are the US flag for one half but the Confederate Battle Flag on the other.   Plus one variation I’ve seen which has a hand reaching across and lifting up the US flag to reveal the Confederate Battle Flag underneath. 
 

Flags which have a Trump campaign poster superimposed in the center. I thought I had hallucinated that the first time I saw one…

 

The part which really irritates me the most is that (judging by the politics being expressed) these are mostly the same type of people who “back in the day” would be getting all lathered up about the need for an amendment to protect the flag from being burned and here the flag is being treated like another piece of poster board for politics and profit. 

[Cygnia]

A Nation Conceived in Liberty Confronts Its Queasiness With the “MILF Mobile”

[wcw43921]

Meanwhile, Over In Tennessee

[Terminax]

I fly both a Canadian and American flag and "properly" at that. I'm not particularly patriotic to either Canada or the USA, it's just something I do because several of my significant others are American and I always thought it respectful that I cared about them as I do my fellow Canucks.

[wcw43921]

Capitol Riot Defendants Receiving History Lessons From Their Attorney

[Ranxerox]

I fly a flag in the summer.  You aren't suppose to fly the stars and stripes in the dark, and only in the summer is it already light by the time that I have to leave for work.

 

As for the politics and the meaning of the flag, I refuse to cede either my country or the flag that represents it to racist and fascist.

[Lord Liaden]

1 hour ago, wcw43921 said:

Capitol Riot Defendants Receiving History Lessons From Their Attorney

 

This is where it has to start. Fear and hatred thrive on ignorance.

 

But powerful political and economic factions in America have staked their survival on keeping Americans ignorant. That's going to make reforming education that much harder.

[unclevlad]

34 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

This is where it has to start. Fear and hatred thrive on ignorance.

 

But powerful political and economic factions in America have staked their survival on keeping Americans ignorant. That's going to make reforming education that much harder.

 

And those women should send Christmas cards to that lawyer forever. 

 

I wouldn't say "staked their survival" so much, just their annual dividend.

[TrickstaPriest]

13 hours ago, Tom said:

The part which really irritates me the most is that (judging by the politics being expressed) these are mostly the same type of people who “back in the day” would be getting all lathered up about the need for an amendment to protect the flag from being burned and here the flag is being treated like another piece of poster board for politics and profit. 

 

It's not a surprise - Trumpism is basically a drug.  It's self validation, and people will get drunk on that for the express purpose of forgetting everything else they supposedly care about.

 

 

 

This got published recently.  Some disturbing footage, but I saw most of it shortly after the 6th anyway

 

 

[Lord Liaden]

2 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

And those women should send Christmas cards to that lawyer forever. 

 

I wouldn't say "staked their survival" so much, just their annual dividend.

 

For big business, maybe. For Republican politicians, the survival of their political careers depends on an ignorant, and therefore frightened and manipulable electorate. They have literally nothing else to persuade people to vote for them.

[TrickstaPriest]

On 7/4/2021 at 1:09 PM, Lectryk said:

For not working properly, they certainly seemed to be effective at meeting the goals (and paying my salary) that were set for them by the government in response to citizens demands for service

 

 

edit: then again, I've been an environmental advocate for my entire life because I expected this outcome.

[death tribble]

On 7/4/2021 at 11:51 AM, wcw43921 said:

A Symbol Of Unity That May No Longer Unite

 

How about it, all you US HEROes?  Do any of you fly the US Flag?

I don't fly the US flag and I don't celebrate July 4th.

 

July 14th on the other hand.....

[wcw43921]

Which is why I specified US (United States) HEROes.  I certainly don't expect our cousins from other lands to fly the US Flag.  Or even the flag of their own nation.

[death tribble]

I was wondering who if anyone was going to call me on it.

[Terminax]

I think the ideal of the United States of America is very worth having. I feel just the same about the ideal of Canada. However, that ideal isn't the reality. There is allot to be said about the damage and ugliness we have inflicted on others both here and the world in the past, present and probably the future. Ideally, we can reflect on the past, change the present and guide the future to a better world but there is still the reality that we also have to deal with.

[Lectryk]

On 7/4/2021 at 1:52 PM, TrickstaPriest said:

 

I wonder if that's what representative governments are actually incentivized to do.  The fact that our government does not illustrates some of the problems with this assumption, and to even talk about it I guess we have to understand what would incentivize a government to function 'properly' to begin with.

 

 

Nothing you sent in your two replies supports your thesis (listed above, again).  How is the government not incentivized to responsiveness to the citizens, and how is the government not functional.  In answer to the points you raised, my answer would be - things you don't like will change when enough other people who don't like those things act in concert to effect a governmental change in line with their desires.  Again, I cite the last election as a prime example of the government being incentived by the people - "don't do what we like, we kick you out and try someone else."

 

There are several names for governmental systems and nations that are not responsive to citizen demands, that don't work on the model of representative incentivation from their citizenry.  What are their track records on issues you think important?  How is China's record on contribution/mitigation of global warming?  Or maintaining civil rights for the population?  Our wealth inequality inside their borders?  Racial equality/treatment of ethnic minorites?

 

Yes, we face challenges on several points.  I think the battle on climate is lost, and mitigation looks iffy; huge chunks of the oceans have already surpassed the 2 Centigrade mark, and oceans are a main driver of climate.  We've been seeing more forceful storms, stronger/longer fire seasons, droughts, the heat dome going on right now, etc.  These are only the precursors of what we'll see in our lifetimes, ratchets on the roller coaster ride at the start up the hill - each click should be telling us what we're going to face soon.  Even if the people of the world committed to a world wide effort tomorrow to not only decrease new inputs of carbon into our closed system but also to scrub out what is in the system currently, we're committed to the upswing of effect - again for our lifetimes.  And if the efforts to scrub go too far, our grandchildren will be facing a different cycle (not that it shouldn't be tried, but that is an agrument for not trying that I've already seen in literature).    

 

Yes, there is income inequality and it is grossly accelerating in this country and around the world.  And, yes, efforts to change this are being blocked by people who are incentivized by their constituents to not change (even Manchin - his state is not exactly blue).  But, again, incentivized to take a position.

 

You can even say that certain groups have disproportionate weight in the incentivation process - but that isn't the same as saying incentivation doesn't work.  How it works is just engineering and tweaking of the balances (n.b. Citizens United).

 

I will probably agree to some extent with any negative example you want to provide, but the reality is there is no national will to address these issues and there won't be change until there is will to act.  Protests, demonstrations, riots, sit-ins, whatever you example you want to cite are not will.  Voting and involvement in supporting change is.  And we don't see a lot of involvement, really.  The Democrats anemic performance this last cycle shows that.

 

But the system as a system (incentivation to provide certain outcomes/functions from a government or else) is working just fine.  And saying that it doesn't work is just isn't a supportable or defensible position.  

[TrickstaPriest]

22 minutes ago, Lectryk said:

But the system as a system (incentivation to provide certain outcomes/functions from a government or else) is working just fine.  And saying that it doesn't work is just isn't a supportable or defensible position.  

 

I haven't seen a serious attempt to push environmental agendas on either side that are sufficient in preventing our demise.  I have zero people to expect action for, even when I do consistently vote for an environmental agenda. 

 

The system works but is killing us is like a medical system saying surgeries are successful but the patient died from them.

 

If you want a coherent edit:researched and thorough argument from me, you will have to wait until I have the time.

 

edit:  I just disagree fundamentally that a system is working if it the system's stated goals are to support a society when that system's extensively exploited to the effect of killing that society.  It will take a long time for me to break down on every instance of corruption, deception, and how parts of the economic system are rigged to continue it extensively and protecting those that do it, however.

[TrickstaPriest]

13 minutes ago, Lectryk said:

But the system as a system (incentivation to provide certain outcomes/functions from a government or else) is working just fine.  And saying that it doesn't work is just isn't a supportable or defensible position.  

 

I wouldn't agree with that in totality, but I brought up the question because I think that financial representation from major donors has a lot more influence on policy than much else.  There are exceptions, but I'm not proposing a fundamentally different government, merely soliciting suggestions on mitigations.

[TrickstaPriest]

My apologies on losing my temper, though.

[Lectryk]

3 hours ago, TrickstaPriest said:

 

I haven't seen a serious attempt to push environmental agendas on either side that are sufficient in preventing our demise.  I have zero people to expect action for, even when I do consistently vote for an environmental agenda. 

 

The system works but is killing us is like a medical system saying surgeries are successful but the patient died from them.

 

If you want a coherent edit:researched and thorough argument from me, you will have to wait until I have the time.

 

edit:  I just disagree fundamentally that a system is working if it the system's stated goals are to support a society when that system's extensively exploited to the effect of killing that society.  It will take a long time for me to break down on every instance of corruption, deception, and how parts of the economic system are rigged to continue it extensively and protecting those that do it, however.

 

You've got two seperate things here - the factual based points you raised (non-funtional, etc), and the feeling/opinion based 'this is what the government should be doing, but isn't' and you use the latter as evidence for the former, which it just isn't.  If you want to say the people are basically awful, self centered, churlish, hateful scum that you wouldn't have over to your house for dinner - I'll whole heartedly agree.  Is it any surprise that the system of governance that those horrid things have devised is bad for us, and might be killing us slowly?  Not at all.  But it works the way they want it to, the way they devised it to work, and unfortunately it's the best system (supposedly) they've devised yet.

 

As I said above, I probably agree with the majority of your thoughts about what in general is wrong with the state and shape of the world, and I may agree with several of the causes, so there's probably no reason to continue this particular discussion - we're talking past each other on this point.

 

As to demise, you can put your mind at ease.  Humans are the intelligent cockroaches of this world.  The species has survived worse environmental conditions than the worst the specialists are predicting for the forseeable future.  Fine, we'll lose all coastal habition that currently exists, a band around the equator will become only semi-habitable, the ideal growth band is going to shift north and south from it's current position (our Canadian friends will have a choice to make about the unruly idiots to their south), and the globe will only support 2-3 billion at most (if current technology survives).  Our currently existing society and governmental system won't survive the changes that the nation/hemisphere/world is going to face (hell, they've both changed in my lifetime - and my grandparents were born in the 1890's - how much has changed since then?), but unless something stupid happens involving a world wide nuclear exchange, this planet isn't tough enough to wipe us out, only people can do that.  It won't be a happy or easy life to survive, but life is evolved to survive.

 

3 hours ago, TrickstaPriest said:

My apologies on losing my temper, though.

 

I never saw any loss of temper - if this is you losing your temper, you are a very polite and low key angry person .  My tone got out of hand a few times, and I should have stopped sooner, most likely.  You have my apologies - no direct insult was intended.

[Lectryk]

4 hours ago, TrickstaPriest said:

 

I wouldn't agree with that in totality, but I brought up the question because I think that financial representation from major donors has a lot more influence on policy than much else.  There are exceptions, but I'm not proposing a fundamentally different government, merely soliciting suggestions on mitigations.

 

Listing mitigations would take.... more words than we have   reams and reams (or website and website) are filled everyday (not counting the historical thinkers) with ideas to mitigate the problems facing us.  The issue is finding the few that we could probably implement, that wouldn't be hurtful, and wouldn't in some way make things worse..... the person/group that does *that*, I want running things.  

On 7/5/2021 at 11:19 AM, Cygnia said:

A Nation Conceived in Liberty Confronts Its Queasiness With the “MILF Mobile”

 

It's almost like these people don't read newspapers, or do google/Westlaw searches before proposing their paricular silliness -

https://www.jurist.org/news/2020/11/federal-judge-rules-that-california-ban-on-offensive-vanity-license-plates-violates-freedom-of-speech/