Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[Old Man]

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

 

Hmm.

I can say yes, I have.  I'll count pollution reduction as climate change.

Rest in power, unclevlad. You will be avenged.

[unclevlad]

3 minutes ago, Old Man said:

Rest in power, unclevlad. You will be avenged.

 

Gosh, I didn't realize you cared......  I'm so moved..............

[Pariah]

Touched, one might say.

[Old Man]

No, that would violate the terms of the restraining order.

[unclevlad]

Fortunately, the restraining order is implemented as a Barrier around my house.

[Lord Liaden]

3 hours ago, Old Man said:

 

You haven't waited your entire lifetime yet, though, have you? 

 

"Lifetime" isn't the same as "lifespan." If he's waited since birth until this moment, then yes, he's waited his entire lifetime.

 

3 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

Hmm.

I can say yes, I have.  I'll count pollution reduction as climate change.

 

But back when reducing pollution was the hot topic, nobody even mentioned climate change, and most people hadn't heard about it. That was all about being able to breathe the air, and drink and bathe in the water.

[unclevlad]

9 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

But back when reducing pollution was the hot topic, nobody even mentioned climate change, and most people hadn't heard about it. That was all about being able to breathe the air, and drink and bathe in the water.

 

Because the problem of climate change wasn't recognized.  They are deeply interrelated...the byproduct of human activity causing major ecosystemic damage/disruption.

[Iuz the Evil]

So that just happened. I hope there’s some serious soul searching among the party leadership… but more likely they’ll throw around angry accusations of “isms” and double down in “preparation” for next year’s mid term elections.

 

It would be so very easy for a moderate to generate substantial appeal right now, if only either party was even remotely willing to let that happen. Ugh. Meanwhile let’s consider this a stop along the way to inevitable escalation?

We have got significant problems right now, in this country, and are very divided. I fear it is going to get much more difficult before there’s any chance of improvement.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Honestly, I think most Americans want fascism at this point. It's going to be scary. I have seriously considered leaving the country. I won't be welcome in a fascist America.

 

[Lord Liaden]

I now fear that America's near future is screwed. Which means the world's near future is screwed.

 

 

[Dr. MID-Nite]

I really don't want fascists in charge of America's military and nuclear arsenal. Sigh...

 

[TrickstaPriest]

2 hours ago, Iuz the Evil said:

It would be so very easy for a moderate to generate substantial appeal right now, if only either party was even remotely willing to let that happen. Ugh. Meanwhile let’s consider this a stop along the way to inevitable escalation?

 

 

The problem is we've waited a long time to fix some of these problems, like... climate change, or income inequality.  So long that these things will likely begin actively destroying cities every decade before we start doing anything.

[Cygnia]

38 minutes ago, Dr. MID-Nite said:

I really don't want fascists in charge of America's military and nuclear arsenal. Sigh...

 

The fascists in OH are gearing up to regulate my womb

[DShomshak]

Well, I've thought Democrats were -- again -- snatching defeat from the jaws of victory ever since House Democrats decided to make passing the "hard" infrastructure bill contingent on passing the social spending bill. As pundit David Brooks said, the infrastructure bill was a trillion-dollar aid package and love letter to the working class -- a class that Dems spent decades alienating as the party became more college-educated, accredited, and wokishly obsessed with cultural reform instead of jobs.

 

I am told the strategy was that Joe Manchin would hold his nose and vote for the full Progressive agenda, rather than see the bill he helped negotiate and pass go nowhere?

 

But that seems like a flipping stupid strategy. When your majority is so razor-thin, the chief concern should be increasing it in the next election. I think the way to do that is to keep showing voters that Dems can deliver what the voters want. So, pass something practical -- anything -- every few months. Start off with the infrastructure bill. If Republicans want to take credit, let them. Biden's the President, he's the one people will associate with the bill and the results. Move on to other programs with overwhelming public support, such as the child tax credit program that was putting money in millions of parents' pockets through the pandemic. Even a mojority of Republicans liked that. Pay for it with an inheritance tax on trust funds. If Republicans shoot it down, the attack ads write themselves -- "Republicans care more about the children of their billionaire donors than about YOUR children!" Funding for Historically Black Colleges & Universities is another potential easy pass: Even Trump backed that, in an attempt to curry favor with Black voters.

 

First try to pass such bills by standard means. If a few Republicans want to be seen assisting practical legislation, that's good for everyone. If they stand firm and block it, everyone knows who's responsible, and Dems can move on to budget reconciliation or other tactics.

 

It's also worth remembering that while solid majorities support many individual progressive policies, that doesn't mean a solid majority supports the full progressive package. So the strategy for progressives should be to seek small and narrow victories instead of some big, utopian vision. Yes, that means abandoning climate change legislation... for now. Manchin makes it impossib le... for now. But if voters see Dems passing bills that improve their lives, they might be more inclined to vote Democrat in 2022 -- perhaps enough to increase their Senate seats, so they no longer need to placate Manchin.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Pariah]

The lesson to be learned here, I think, is that Perfect is the enemy of Good. 

 

Yes, Democrats, you have the White House. You have a small majority in the House. You have the tiebreaker in the Senate. That's hardly a mandate.

 

As Dean was saying above, focus on things A} that are accomplishable and B} that are going to matter to the voters. Baby steps. For example: Green New Deal? Unlikely. Incremental steps toward cleaning up the Earth and reversing (to whatever extent possible) climate change? Desirable, attainable goals that even clear-thinking Republicans will support. 

 

You won't be able to do everything you want, everything you think is important. But do something. Give the voters a reason to vote for you. "I'm not Donald Trump" isn't enough, just like "I'm not George W. Bush" wasn't good enough in 2004 and "I'm not Barack Obama" wasn't good enough for Republicans in 2012. 

 

I'm old enough to remember Bill Clinton playing the saxophone on the Arsenio Hall show. When he was done, Hall quipped something like, "Finally a Democrat who can blow something other than an election!" Let's not make that an isolated incident, please. The future is too precarious to trust to the GOP right now.

[unclevlad]

Severely cynical post-election thought...

 

The right-wing pundits have continued to resist moves to quell the pandemic because...pure and simple...they gain from slowing the recovery.  The longer it takes, the more the party in power suffers.  They aren't in power any more.

[TrickstaPriest]

16 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

The right-wing pundits have continued to resist moves to quell the pandemic because...pure and simple...they gain from slowing the recovery.  The longer it takes, the more the party in power suffers.  They aren't in power any more.

 

Not an unrealistic cynical viewpoint.  Look at Fox, Tucker, etc, they are absolutely sabotaging it with antivax hysteria.  Look at the Afghan withdrawl.  Who started it at the end of his term so he could dodge the actual consequences of starting it?  Which news conveniently forgot who was meeting the Taliban right up at the end of his term in negotiating it first?

 

Nixon scuttling peace in Vietnam?

 

This happens literally all the time.

[TrickstaPriest]

(well, maybe I should dig up and share more examples, but...)

[unclevlad]

The cynical part is to say they're doing so, knowing the damage they continue to do, and viewing that doing the damage they know is going on, is the long-term path to success.

 

Like some of the others today, I think we're totally hosed, and there's little to no chance of averting it to any real degree.  The Dems aren't going to lose the Senate, I think they're going to be crushed.  And in the House.  And that'll let the Republicans lock out anything Biden might want.  There will be very few Republican candidates against which he'll stand a chance in 2024.

[TrickstaPriest]

1 minute ago, unclevlad said:

The cynical part is to say they're doing so, knowing the damage they continue to do, and viewing that doing the damage they know is going on, is the long-term path to success.

 

Like some of the others today, I think we're totally hosed, and there's little to no chance of averting it to any real degree.  The Dems aren't going to lose the Senate, I think they're going to be crushed.  And in the House.  And that'll let the Republicans lock out anything Biden might want.  There will be very few Republican candidates against which he'll stand a chance in 2024.

 

And climate change plans will continue to be delayed another thirty years, and any financial reform almost as long.  Yep.

[Lord Liaden]

The Democrats have been terrible salesmen for a long time. They don't know how to communicate a message to the majority, how to spin it in terms their audience wants to hear. They won't play PR hardball the way the Republicans have been for years. Republicans have adopted the tactics of the former Bullsh!tter in Chief, who proved that bullsh!t sells if you say it often enough with conviction.

 

We all feared Joe Biden was not the right quarterback for this game, and that's been borne out. He's a decent man and a competent administrator, but he wants to be reasonable and fair, to play well with others. His opponents don't, they'll do anything to win. And if anyone cries Foul! their fans won't listen.

[Pariah]

Sounds a little like Jimmy Carter back in the day. Good and decent human being, not an effective President.

[Old Man]

To be fair I sharply reduced my expectations when the Democrats only got 50 seats in the Senate and I knew one of them was Manchin.  We've had Blue Dogs among the representation for our state for years so I'm familiar with the playbook.  Intentionally or not, these people effectively act as Republican double agents, delaying and sabotaging the efforts of the party they claim to belong to.  Unless the Democrats make gains in both the Senate and House next year, expect the obstruction to continue until 2024.  And the Democrats will not make gains in both the Senate and House next year.

[TrickstaPriest]

1 hour ago, Old Man said:

And the Democrats will not make gains in both the Senate and House next year.

 

And so the USA will continue to avoid solving or even addressing civilization-ending issues...

[unclevlad]

1 hour ago, TrickstaPriest said:

 

And so the USA will continue to avoid solving or even addressing civilization-ending issues...

 

Oh no.

 

No, no, no.

 

It'll get so, so, so much worse.

 

https://www.vox.com/2021/11/3/22758188/climate-change-epa-clean-power-plan-supreme-court