Lord Liaden Posted November 22, 2021 Report Share Posted November 22, 2021 8 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said: Narcotics, used properly, are beneficial in medicine. Due to the implications of their improper use, their manufacture, sale and possession are highly regulated, with severe penalties when these rules are violated. Are they more dangerous, in the wrong hands, than firearms? Yes, they're more dangerous. Not more harmful; narcotics abuse has devastating effects on not just the user, but everyone they care about, and on society as a whole. But a pill or an injection can't be used to kill someone else at fifty yards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted November 22, 2021 Report Share Posted November 22, 2021 Donald Trump receives ninth Dan Taekwondo belt pinecone 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted November 22, 2021 Report Share Posted November 22, 2021 15 hours ago, Pattern Ghost said: Also, guns aren't death rays. The vast majority of people who get shot survive. Sucks to be them, but they tend to survive. James Brady survived his injuries in 1981 for over two decades. That does not, to me, suggest that he was not a tragic victim of gun violence. As well, his death over two decades later was still considered a homicide. 7 hours ago, Lord Liaden said: Yes, they're more dangerous. Not more harmful; narcotics abuse has devastating effects on not just the user, but everyone they care about, and on society as a whole. But a pill or an injection can't be used to kill someone else at fifty yards. I would suggest the death or disability of an individual by gun violence also has devastating effects on not just the victim, but everyone they care about, or who cares about them, and on society as a whole. For example, it creates a mentality in the nature of "I need a bigger gun so I can protect myself and those I care about." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted November 22, 2021 Report Share Posted November 22, 2021 45 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said: James Brady survived his injuries in 1981 for over two decades. That does not, to me, suggest that he was not a tragic victim of gun violence. As well, his death over two decades later was still considered a homicide. Did you see the "sucks to be them" part? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted November 22, 2021 Report Share Posted November 22, 2021 On a completely depressing and possibly not as directly related note, it seems the Sabre rattling from China over Tawain has intensified, kind of par for the course lately, but Russia is rumored to be gathering forces off Ukraine for another slice. https://www.forbes.com/sites/teakvetenadze/2021/11/21/russian-possible-invasion-of-ukraine-reports-of-military-buildup-grow/?sh=1dca5e0b818c Anyone wiser than me in the ways of international politics (Which might be all of you) have opinions if either is going to make a move? TrickstaPriest 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted November 22, 2021 Report Share Posted November 22, 2021 2 hours ago, Hermit said: On a completely depressing and possibly not as directly related note, it seems the Sabre rattling from China over Tawain has intensified, kind of par for the course lately, but Russia is rumored to be gathering forces off Ukraine for another slice. https://www.forbes.com/sites/teakvetenadze/2021/11/21/russian-possible-invasion-of-ukraine-reports-of-military-buildup-grow/?sh=1dca5e0b818c Anyone wiser than me in the ways of international politics (Which might be all of you) have opinions if either is going to make a move? From what I’m reading, Putin intends to roll tanks into Ukraine no later than January and China plans to invade Taiwan within the next three years. I have some doubts about Putin, Ukraine is no longer the pushover they were a few years ago and he knows that. I’d be shocked if the Chinese didn’t go after Taiwan though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted November 22, 2021 Report Share Posted November 22, 2021 Vladimir Putin has a long history of testing the international community to see how far he can go before provoking a response. He knows Joe Biden is not Donald Trump and will probably be more cautious in the near future, but he isn't going to stop. He may, however, wait to see what turn American politics will take. Xi Jinping has shown more interest in economic rather than military imperialism, although he wants to be a bigger influencer on the international stage; and the Chinese generally are feeling their strength and becoming more assertive as a matter of pride. But Taiwan for them is rather like Cuba for the United States. Their resentment is deeply personal, and their policies toward each other are not wholly driven by reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted November 22, 2021 Report Share Posted November 22, 2021 7 hours ago, Pattern Ghost said: Did you see the "sucks to be them" part? So "sucks to be the poor guy who got shot" is the best we should do? How very humanitarian of you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pariah Posted November 22, 2021 Report Share Posted November 22, 2021 I fear we may be starting to drift into ad hominem territory. No good end awaits us there. Hermit, Lawnmower Boy, Pattern Ghost and 1 other 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted November 22, 2021 Report Share Posted November 22, 2021 22 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said: Xi Jinping has shown more interest in economic rather than military imperialism, although he wants to be a bigger influencer on the international stage; and the Chinese generally are feeling their strength and becoming more assertive as a matter of pride. But Taiwan for them is rather like Cuba for the United States. Their resentment is deeply personal, and their policies toward each other are not wholly driven by reason. China is now much less dependent on U.S. trade economically, especially after the unilateral trade war of the last administration. More importantly, the glorious campaign to reunify the rogue province of Taiwan has been running for thirty years, to the point where the Xi regime will lose a lot of standing internally if it doesn't happen. And lastly, the PLA took advantage of the U.S. distracting itself with ruinous wars in Asia to embark on a breathtaking arms buildup that includes state of the art submarines and guided missile destroyers, 4th and 5th generation fighters, and hypersonic missiles. The U.S. and other interested parties are frantically arming Taiwan in response, recently upgrading their few dozen F-16s to the F-16V standard and stationing Patriot missile batteries all over the island, but it may well be a case of too little, too late. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted November 23, 2021 Report Share Posted November 23, 2021 2 hours ago, Old Man said: China is now much less dependent on U.S. trade economically, especially after the unilateral trade war of the last administration. More importantly, the glorious campaign to reunify the rogue province of Taiwan has been running for thirty years, to the point where the Xi regime will lose a lot of standing internally if it doesn't happen. And lastly, the PLA took advantage of the U.S. distracting itself with ruinous wars in Asia to embark on a breathtaking arms buildup that includes state of the art submarines and guided missile destroyers, 4th and 5th generation fighters, and hypersonic missiles. The U.S. and other interested parties are frantically arming Taiwan in response, recently upgrading their few dozen F-16s to the F-16V standard and stationing Patriot missile batteries all over the island, but it may well be a case of too little, too late. That "glorious campaign" dates back to Mao. China's Communist government has always maintained that China is indivisible. It's generational cultural dogma that every living PRC citizen has grown up with. That's why I likened it to Cuba and the American "commitment" to "liberate" the island from Communist dictatorship. That's been a given for almost every presidential administration since Castro's revolution, it drives domestic politics, but nothing ever comes of it, and no one really expects that to change. China's military buildup would have happened regardless of the United States government being distracted by foreign wars, because Xi believes in bargaining from a position of strength. But China's military might still lags far behind that of the United States, and Xi knows that. However, he may be calculating that China is, or soon will be, strong enough that the United States intervening in an outright invasion of Taiwan would lead to loss of American lives unacceptable to the American people, and therefore politically untenable for the American government. Xi's policies seem to be focused on raising his personal prestige and cementing his control of China, but he's been patient and methodical in working toward that goal. If he thinks invading Taiwan will bring him more of those things, I absolutely expect him to go for it, but only when he's confident of success. (I imagine Donald Trump returning to the White House would seal the deal.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted November 23, 2021 Report Share Posted November 23, 2021 1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said: But China's military might still lags far behind that of the United States Does it, though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted November 23, 2021 Report Share Posted November 23, 2021 4 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said: So "sucks to be the poor guy who got shot" is the best we should do? How very humanitarian of you. I believe you "forgot" the context for the quote you pulled: If you are attacking someone with lethal force and sustain a horrific injury, then yes, it sucks to be you. Remind me again, who was Brady attacking with lethal force when he was shot? That's right: Nobody. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted November 23, 2021 Report Share Posted November 23, 2021 3 hours ago, Old Man said: Does it, though? It does. Military budget for the United States in 2020 was between $738 billion and $778 billion, depending on the market exchange rate used to analyze it; or 3.7% of GDP, which adds up to at least a third of all government military spending on Earth. China's, which is #2, was between $193 and $252 billion, or 1.7% of GDP. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures The US could literally cut its defense spending in half, and would still outspend China by 50% or more. The Chinese have immense manpower they could draw from, but that doesn't weigh nearly as much in today's warfare as hardware. American hardware is vastly deeper, and among the most advanced on the planet. And even on the manpower front, American servicepeople receive the finest training in all aspects of modern war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted November 23, 2021 Report Share Posted November 23, 2021 But that’s spending, not in-theater capability. Right now the Chinese can put far more ships and planes around and over Taiwan than the U.S. could hope to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted November 23, 2021 Report Share Posted November 23, 2021 No, they couldn't. Half of the American fleet is on the Pacific side of the country. They could start mobilizing as soon as American spy satellites showed the Chinese preparing their forces for war, besides positioning their ships already at sea in the region. If the US government wished to it could at least match any force China could deploy to Taiwan; and the Americans would presumably also have the assistance of the Taiwanese military in defense of the island. The question is whether the US would be willing to match that force in defense of Taiwan. In today's political climate I think that's unlikely. I haven't given up hope that we won't have to find out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted November 23, 2021 Report Share Posted November 23, 2021 18 hours ago, Starlord said: Donald Trump receives ninth Dan Taekwondo belt I'm sure Kim Jong-un is equally qualified. They should meet in a ring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted November 23, 2021 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2021 13 hours ago, Pariah said: I fear we may be starting to drift into ad hominem territory. No good end awaits us there. Correct you are. Keep the discussion to the post and not the poster, folks. There are two folks that stepped out of line here and both should take this warning to heart as it would be a second warning point for either of them. Hugh - you know better...or damn well should by now. Pattern Ghost - I was extremely close to giving you a warning for your initial response. Going forward, know that editing your post will not avoid a warning. Pattern Ghost 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted November 23, 2021 Report Share Posted November 23, 2021 6 hours ago, Lord Liaden said: No, they couldn't. Half of the American fleet is on the Pacific side of the country. They could start mobilizing as soon as American spy satellites showed the Chinese preparing their forces for war, besides positioning their ships already at sea in the region. If the US government wished to it could at least match any force China could deploy to Taiwan; and the Americans would presumably also have the assistance of the Taiwanese military in defense of the island. The question is whether the US would be willing to match that force in defense of Taiwan. In today's political climate I think that's unlikely. I haven't given up hope that we won't have to find out. Thanks to you and Old man for your opinions, and I mean that non sarcastically. I'm afraid I've grown quite cynical about the direction the world is taking, maybe even fatalistic. I have a nightmare scenario in my head where China and Russia each make a move on Taiwan and Ukraine respectively at the same time (pre arranged but neither will admit it). America has the scariest military in the world, but .. I don't think we can be counted to come to anyone's defense with our current political divisions and at least one of those two (Ukraine or Taiwan) would be screwed- Perhaps both. I understand that some European leaders think it is time to build up their own military as a group with the rest of the EU, one less American reliant. While I don't want NATO to break up or anything, I think it might be a wise precaution. Lord Liaden 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cygnia Posted November 23, 2021 Report Share Posted November 23, 2021 The QAnon JFK Cult in Dallas Is Tearing Families Apart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DShomshak Posted November 23, 2021 Report Share Posted November 23, 2021 Hermit, Anne Applebaum's recent article in The Atlantic suggests your nightmare scenario is not unlikely at all. The despots have coalesced into a bloc. They aid each other, from evading sanctions to undermining democratic governments. Like, Balarus' Lukashenko gets aid from both communist Cuba and theocratic Iran. Let's see if I can type in the link: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/12/the-autocrats-are-winning/620526/ To add top the gloom, my local paper includes a squib that the Stockholm-based Institute for Democracy and Electoral Assistance added the US to its list of "democratically backsliding" countries in its Global State of Democracy 2021 report. More than a quarter of the world's population now lives in democratically backsliding countries. Dean Shomshak Hermit 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclevlad Posted November 23, 2021 Report Share Posted November 23, 2021 That's also not the first such report about the state of US democracy and/or freedom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pariah Posted November 23, 2021 Report Share Posted November 23, 2021 Apparently we Americans are now fine with everyone being equal, as long as some of us are more equal than others. Orwell's works were supposed to be a warning, not a [REDACTED] operating manual. aylwin13 and TrickstaPriest 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted November 23, 2021 Report Share Posted November 23, 2021 11 hours ago, Lord Liaden said: No, they couldn't. Half of the American fleet is on the Pacific side of the country. That's true, including five carrier strike groups: the America, Reagan, Carl Vinson, Nimitz (undergoing refit) and Lincoln. But how many ships is that? The entire U.S. Navy consists of less than three hundred combat vessels. The PLAN has 355, and while they may not all be carriers or Type 052Ds, they are all in the Pacific. 11 hours ago, Lord Liaden said: They could start mobilizing as soon as American spy satellites showed the Chinese preparing their forces for war, besides positioning their ships already at sea in the region. That would involve transiting the Suez or the Panama Canal. It could take a while. 11 hours ago, Lord Liaden said: If the US government wished to it could at least match any force China could deploy to Taiwan; and the Americans would presumably also have the assistance of the Taiwanese military in defense of the island. The question is whether the US would be willing to match that force in defense of Taiwan. In today's political climate I think that's unlikely. I haven't given up hope that we won't have to find out. The overall point I'm trying to make is that it's not purely a question of numbers. One really has to look at a map to understand how difficult it will be to defend Taiwan. Taiwan does not have infinite space to hold planes or troops. Moreover, it's fifty miles offshore from a Chinese mainland that is bristling with surface-to-surface missiles, many of which are hypersonic antiship missiles. Taiwan is frantically deploying truck-mounted missile batteries of its own that might survive an initial Chinese missile barrage, but it's hard to make airfields mobile. There are no U.S. bases in the area aside from Okinawa, which is also within missile range. Guam is almost 1000 miles away. China is right there, with greater numbers of modern combat aircraft than every other country in the area combined. The U.S. still has clear advantages in submarines and carriers (if carriers are not yet obsolete), but in my estimation the invasion of Taiwan will be decided by the initial missile duel. Still, my security clearance lapsed a long time ago, so perhaps we have some alien tech in reserve... Lord Liaden 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted November 23, 2021 Report Share Posted November 23, 2021 You make some very good points, OM. I think we mainly disagree over the magnitude of the tactical disparity, not that it won't be a bloody mess, or that the US is unlikely to commit the resources necessary to at least turn back an invasion. It would be interesting to see what an invasion of Taiwan by the Chinese would do to the military profile of its neighboring countries. India already sees China as a potential threat. The debate in Japan over turning their military from a purely defensive force to a more interventionist one has been heating up in recent years. (Yes, that would require amending their constitution, but that can be done if they have the political will.) Nonetheless, military action against Taiwan would be an outlier for Chinese policy, for the reasons I mentioned earlier. Xi Jinping's stated long term plans focus on dominance of international trade, not territory. Old Man 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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