TrickstaPriest Posted December 2, 2021 Report Share Posted December 2, 2021 Regardless, states right shouldn't/don't supersede the minimum rights we give our populace... Hermit 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrickstaPriest Posted December 3, 2021 Report Share Posted December 3, 2021 In case people thought things were going to stay at '13 weeks' https://www.texastribune.org/2021/12/02/texas-ban-medical-abortion/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrickstaPriest Posted December 3, 2021 Report Share Posted December 3, 2021 2 hours ago, TrickstaPriest said: In case people thought things were going to stay at '13 weeks' https://www.texastribune.org/2021/12/02/texas-ban-medical-abortion/ A perspective reminder - a number of abortion clinics still died in Texas, and now getting prescriptive abortion medicine is illegal. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/texas-independent-clinics-fight-survive-under-restrictive-abortion-law-n1283696 So Texan women are going to have to pay to leave Texas, or travel very far out of their way, in order to get an abortion. It's effectively being killed there regardless of the Roe v Wade decision. But this will likely be replicated in many other states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wcw43921 Posted December 3, 2021 Report Share Posted December 3, 2021 The Crumbleys Are On The Run. But to where? I doubt Canada would let them in, and no one in America can legally give them sanctuary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted December 4, 2021 Report Share Posted December 4, 2021 4 hours ago, wcw43921 said: The Crumbleys Are On The Run. But to where? I doubt Canada would let them in, and no one in America can legally give them sanctuary. Oh some red state will legalize harboring white gun owners exercising their 2A rights or some other pretext. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. MID-Nite Posted December 5, 2021 Report Share Posted December 5, 2021 Sure is lucky this disturbed kid had a role model in the form of Rittenhouse....a vigilante praised as a "hero" by every reactionary idiot in this country. Pariah and Ragitsu 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csyphrett Posted December 5, 2021 Report Share Posted December 5, 2021 The Crumbleys have been picked up in Detroit. CES Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted December 5, 2021 Report Share Posted December 5, 2021 On 12/3/2021 at 4:44 PM, wcw43921 said: The Crumbleys Are On The Run. But to where? I doubt Canada would let them in, and no one in America can legally give them sanctuary. This story doesn't suggest any circumstances whereby they could claim refugee status, so no, Canada wouldn't allow fugitives from American law into the country legally. They could slip in covertly, of course, but $4,000.00 US won't sustain two people for long in Canada. (I tried not to mention "responsible gun owners" again, but failed my Ego roll.) 😞 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Posted December 5, 2021 Report Share Posted December 5, 2021 4 hours ago, Lord Liaden said: This story doesn't suggest any circumstances whereby they could claim refugee status, so no, Canada wouldn't allow fugitives from American law into the country legally. They could slip in covertly, of course, but $4,000.00 US won't sustain two people for long in Canada. (I tried not to mention "responsible gun owners" again, but failed my Ego roll.) 😞 Yeah, well, these people aren’t exactly poster children for “responsible gun owners” - but I’m fairly old school and out-of-touch, so what do I know. (Darn, failed my EGO Roll too…) I am curious to see if the charges against the parents stick. I’ve read Michigan doesn’t actually have any laws requiring safe storage, but their reported behavior makes it seem unlikely for them to escape a courthouse entirely unscathed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted December 5, 2021 Report Share Posted December 5, 2021 $4,000 - I'm tempted to suggest the lawyer's retainer, but they'll blow through that way too fast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cygnia Posted December 5, 2021 Report Share Posted December 5, 2021 15 hours ago, Dr. MID-Nite said: Sure is lucky this disturbed kid had a role model in the form of Rittenhouse....a vigilante praised as a "hero" by every reactionary idiot in this country. https://wehuntedthemammoth.com/2021/12/03/some-incels-are-hailing-the-oxford-high-school-shooter-as-the-new-elliot-rodger/ pinecone 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lectryk Posted December 5, 2021 Report Share Posted December 5, 2021 3 hours ago, Tom said: I am curious to see if the charges against the parents stick. I’ve read Michigan doesn’t actually have any laws requiring safe storage, but their reported behavior makes it seem unlikely for them to escape a courthouse entirely unscathed. Oxford is about 60 miles from me. I know something about Michigan laws. The charges she laid weren't the right ones, as with Rittenhouse case. The covering law (750.321) is driven by intent (always a hard thing to establish in cases) - involuntary means there wasn't intent, but still the death occured. I don't see lesser charges listed, but I'm not digging into the filings, they may be there. The facts required to prove the case (that the parents caused the deaths unintentionally) also apply to the school officials that allowed him to return to class, and frankly those are more supportable and proximate - the school discovered the drawing, the school discovered the gun was carried in, the school saw the searches for ammunition, the school failed to act to protect their charges by allowing him to return to class without notifying appropriate mental health/child saftey organizations/the Sheriff's Department, etc (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/03/us/crumbley-parents-charged-michigan-shooting.html). She's weakened her own case by also charging the kid as an adult - it'll be harder to show negligence or causation on their part, since he is considered in the eyes of the legal system to be a competent adult, and therefore putatively able to know 'right' from 'wrong'. Another hill to climb is the no prior bad acts/disciplinary problems on his record issue - even if there were parenting or gun storage laws they had fallen afoul of, there's no offical indication of an issue, until the shooting. And, her arguments about clear cut warning signals will be are only from her vantage point (with the facts as presented by the article) - there's a wide variety of opinion on how people should raise their children, like it or not. Yet another uphill fight the prosecutor will have is seating a friendly jury in that country - it only flipped from Republic control in this last election - for a very long time it has been a conservative chunk in southeastern Michigan, and there's a strong tradition of gun ownership, hunting 'up north' , outdoorsmanship, etc. If she has charged lesser counts, or they are allowed a plea deal, they'll get some negative outcome. If it's balls to the wall like with Rittenhouse, expect a similar outcome. I think it's a bad situation, I think that we should have better aligned laws than we do, but the law is the tool that the prosecutor has to work within, and making this a political statement as much as a legal one (see numerous clips of her talking about it) isn't helpful, at all. Her 'thinking it's criminal' and being able to prove that statement in court, before a jury, limited by rules of evidence, are two very different things. Someone made a comment about retainers/fees up thread - she has made this another cause celebre that will have defense donations pouring in, the Crumleys don't have to worry about how they'll pay for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclevlad Posted December 5, 2021 Report Share Posted December 5, 2021 So you're saying there may be technical issues with the charges...as with Rittenhouse. Fair enough. NYT has this, in the story cited: Quote The day after Thanksgiving, he and his father had gone together to a Michigan gun shop to buy it. He and his mother spent a day testing out the gun, which was stored unlocked in the parents’ bedroom. On Monday, when a teacher reported seeing their son searching online for ammunition, his mother did not seem alarmed. “LOL I’m not mad at you,” Jennifer Crumbley texted her son. “You have to learn not to get caught.” That would seem to support SOME kind of charges against the parents, if it's true. Reports suggest the parents *should be* held accountable to a significant degree, and clearly the prosecutor feels that way. Whether she's letting her anger influence her actions, rather than purely what's feasible under the law...well, that remains to be seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lectryk Posted December 6, 2021 Report Share Posted December 6, 2021 51 minutes ago, unclevlad said: So you're saying there may be technical issues with the charges...as with Rittenhouse. Fair enough. NYT has this, in the story cited: That would seem to support SOME kind of charges against the parents, if it's true. Reports suggest the parents *should be* held accountable to a significant degree, and clearly the prosecutor feels that way. Whether she's letting her anger influence her actions, rather than purely what's feasible under the law...well, that remains to be seen. The law doesn't work on shoulda/coulda/woulda - specific things have to happen to set the crime and severity charged, and specific elements have to be proved, to support the charge. The prosecutor charged involuntary manslaughter. The facts don't appear to support that charge, from the story (no prior problems with discipline, for ex). Additionally, the intervening actions of other adults dilute their responsiblity (the kid who is being charged as an adult, and the multiple school officials involved, who took no actions to prevent this obviously troubled teen from doing the crime). Will the prosecutor be charging every school official who could have said 'Go home', but didn't? Michigan doesn't have a safe storage law, and while I think they aren't fit parents or responsible gun owners, there's nothing else mentioned about charges they might actually be guilty of under the current laws. Even if the county prosecutor manages to pull off a Clarence Darrow level case and convict, there are more levels of appeals to go through - all in settings that aren't emotionally charged by the case. I don't know if the filings include lesser, more applicable crimes. I hope they do, or that the judge that lands the case will allow them to be added early on (as opposed to Rittenhouse). We'll see what actually goes forward when the charges are filed, not just talked about in a news article. And, we'll probably see some new laws proposed in state government to tighten up laws around this sort of thing. Since the State houses are controlled by the Republicans now, I wouldn't expect those to go anywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lectryk Posted December 6, 2021 Report Share Posted December 6, 2021 https://www.michiganradio.org/public-safety/2021-12-05/ag-nessel-offers-independent-review-of-schools-actions-related-to-oxford-shooting The review should be conducted by an outside agency, so this is good. I wonder how much the two reports will vary... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cygnia Posted December 6, 2021 Report Share Posted December 6, 2021 New Evidence Suggests Trump DOJ Official Conspired With White House to Overturn 2020 Election Ragitsu 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted December 7, 2021 Report Share Posted December 7, 2021 I don't think anyone should be surprised anymore at anything they hear or read about the Trump administration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cygnia Posted December 7, 2021 Report Share Posted December 7, 2021 Locked-Up 'Sullen' Crumbley Family Showing No Remorse After School Shooting, Says Sheriff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cancer Posted December 7, 2021 Report Share Posted December 7, 2021 I suggest to any of our members who reside in Texas that they make a suggestion to their legislature that the title of the head of the executive branch in that state be changed from "governor" to "ayatollah". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted December 7, 2021 Report Share Posted December 7, 2021 37 minutes ago, Cygnia said: Locked-Up 'Sullen' Crumbley Family Showing No Remorse After School Shooting, Says Sheriff They have to learn not to get caught. Matt the Bruins, Grailknight, Pariah and 2 others 2 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Posted December 7, 2021 Report Share Posted December 7, 2021 10 minutes ago, Old Man said: They have to learn not to get caught. I think if you’d left off the winking smiley it would more accurately represent their thinking… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclevlad Posted December 7, 2021 Report Share Posted December 7, 2021 Seating a jury in these trials is going to be a serious problem. 1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said: I don't think anyone should be surprised anymore at anything they hear or read about the Trump administration. Was thinking of this earlier. The only surprising aspect is that, in the end, many of the people actually said No to some things. Because if not, things could've been quite a bit worse. Don't take that as a compliment to those officials, BTW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrickstaPriest Posted December 7, 2021 Report Share Posted December 7, 2021 2 hours ago, Cancer said: I suggest to any of our members who reside in Texas that they make a suggestion to their legislature that the title of the head of the executive branch in that state be changed from "governor" to "ayatollah". What's new down there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted December 7, 2021 Report Share Posted December 7, 2021 When in doubt, surprise them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted December 7, 2021 Report Share Posted December 7, 2021 As someone else pointed out to me, if you look at the actions of politicians on today's American Right from the perspective of, "What would a fascist do?" none of it is surprising or unpredictable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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