Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[unclevlad]

1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

There is something I wanted to get a read about from our American community here. I now read and hear much discussion of how far down the fascist and theocratic path the agenda of the Right in the US may lead if the Republicans regain power, based on what they've done and what they say they want to do, federally and at state level. I wondered whether you hear in your parts of the country, any support being expressed for separating from the rest of the United States if that starts to become reality, rather than submit to regressive policies. Or on the other side of the coin, your region seceding from the Union if federal Republicans are defeated and those policies rolled back.

 

I know there are pretty profound differences in the attitudes of the majority in "red" and "blue" states. Here in Canada there have been periods when the sentiment for breaking up the country has been strong, in the province of Quebec and in the western provinces. Fortunately we're now in a period of relative calm when that prospect appears off the table aside from occasional opportunistic inflammatory political rhetoric; but from our perspective the divisive forces in American society appear intense enough that it seems like a possibility. In your experience is it contemplated much?

 

Right now, I can't say I've heard any such rumors.  Abortion's a bad litmus test for this, tho, because the federal level is simply telling the states "do whatever you want."  So the liberal states will allow it;  the conservative states will bar it.  The test will come should state A attempt to penalize a woman, who is a resident of A, who travels to state B where abortions are allowed, and has the procedure after the 'acceptable' period in state A.  

 

The more likely hot button problem will be if some states continue to manipulate the federal election process...for example, name electors contrary to the popular vote.  The Constitution doesn't *give* a procedure.  

 

I also wouldn't be amazed if the Western states don't start forming a regional conservation/environmental district, that could grow to, in many ways, a separated government, as for these states' residents, water is likely, in my mind, to rise to the level of Medicare and Social Security is for senior citizens...often transcending politics generally, a single, overwhelming focus issue.  The recent Vegas ban on those little patches of grass is the first signal.

[Lord Liaden]

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

 

Right now, I can't say I've heard any such rumors.  Abortion's a bad litmus test for this, tho, because the federal level is simply telling the states "do whatever you want."  So the liberal states will allow it;  the conservative states will bar it.  The test will come should state A attempt to penalize a woman, who is a resident of A, who travels to state B where abortions are allowed, and has the procedure after the 'acceptable' period in state A.  

 

 

Mitch McConnell has said publicly that with the overturning of Roe, a nationwide ban on abortion is possible. The topic is "worthy of discussion." One thing we should all be aware of by now, is that when the Republicans say the quiet part out loud, we should take them seriously. Depending on if and by what margin the GOP regain control of Congress after the mid term elections, it could be doable.

[Lectryk]

2 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

Mitch McConnell has said publicly that with the overturning of Roe, a nationwide ban on abortion is possible. The topic is "worthy of discussion." One thing we should all be aware of by now, is that when the Republicans say the quiet part out loud, we should take them seriously. Depending on if and by what margin the GOP regain control of Congress after the mid term elections, it could be doable.

 

Sure, it's possible.  A lot of things are possible, if we could martial the unified political willpower :)  The likelihood of that happening (national ban) is inverse to the likelihood that Mitch is chumming the waters to try to gin up votes for the mid terms.  If he's saying 'it's possible', it's not going to happen.  The Republicans would need 60 to 65 seats, to allow 'moderate' party members who would those thier seats if they voted for a ban cover of not voting 'Aye', while still keeping a 50 vote majority.  And they'd need control of the House by a similar margin, and the Presidency, since they wouldn't have the numbers to override a veto.  So - certainly possible.  Likely?  The numbers haven't been that favorable for the party, ever.  

[Tom]

6 hours ago, Pariah said:

Someone I knew in high school posted a thing on the Book of Face today that said something like this: "They should look at forgiving medical debt for cancer instead of student loans. Education is a choice, cancer is not."

 

It made me want to go back and start working on that app that would deliver a high voltage charge through somebody's phone.

If you want to just shock them without going to technical extremes, you can point out that there are already efforts to create a medical system that doesn’t bankrupt people and welcome them to the cause…

[Tom]

 

[Hugh Neilson]

2 hours ago, Tom said:

If you want to just shock them without going to technical extremes, you can point out that there are already efforts to create a medical system that doesn’t bankrupt people and welcome them to the cause…

 

[vacuous stare]Why are we trying to cure illnesses anyway?  Isn't it God's Will that those specific people got sick?[/vacuous stare]

 

As to the core of the current discussion, "Ban abstinence - those poor kids never even got a chance!"

[Joe Walsh]

I wish Biden and the Dem leadership would read and heed this "Dear Joe" open letter to the President:

https://newsletterwithecm.substack.com/p/dear-joe?r=56osa&s=r&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web

 

An excerpt:

[Pariah]

3 hours ago, Tom said:

If you want to just shock them without going to technical extremes, you can point out that there are already efforts to create a medical system that doesn’t bankrupt people and welcome them to the cause…

 

But ... but ... that's Socialized Medicine™, isn't it? We certainly can't have that!

[Old Man]

2 hours ago, GM Joe said:

I wish Biden and the Dem leadership would read and heed this "Dear Joe" open letter to the President:

https://newsletterwithecm.substack.com/p/dear-joe?r=56osa&s=r&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web

 

An excerpt:

 

I agree with the sentiment but the reality is that the Democrats don't have the votes in the Senate to do anything, including killing the filibuster.  Manchin is a Republican for all intents and purposes; I don't understand why he hasn't been kicked out of the party.  The only thing I can think of that might break the logjam might be to write the guy a government check for fifty billion dollars and literally buy him off.

[Pariah]

“Insightful commentary about three Republican Governors who were overwhelmingly re-elected by their people from a former president who lost to Joe Biden,” Christie tweeted. “Maybe the “R” in RINO really stands for re-elected.”

 

Chris Christie Hits Trump Where It Hurts Most With Scathing Twitter Retort

 

* munches popcorn * 

[Joe Walsh]

16 minutes ago, Old Man said:

 

I agree with the sentiment but the reality is that the Democrats don't have the votes in the Senate to do anything, including killing the filibuster.  Manchin is a Republican for all intents and purposes; I don't understand why he hasn't been kicked out of the party.  The only thing I can think of that might break the logjam might be to write the guy a government check for fifty billion dollars and literally buy him off.

 

Well, as the author of the letter said, "Still worse is the fact that you have executive power at your fingertips that could, at the bare minimum, preserve abortion rights on federal property in every state, and yet you refuse to use it. You could save our lives with the stroke of a pen, but instead you are signing off on exorbitant supplies of weaponry for a war half a world away."

 

Besides, isn't there always a rotating villain? It was Joe Lieberman for a long time. Now it's Joe Manchin. Dems offer endless excuses and then say "Vote for us."

 

50 years of voting "blue no matter who" has gotten us to this point, where we're on the verge of theocratic fascism.

 

Yet Biden does nothing at all. Despite all the pre-election talk of his years in the senate giving him a unique ability to get his agenda passed, he claims helplessness in the face of a party member's intransigence.  Heck, he nominated Manchin's wife for a cushy job.

 

Every opportunity to tie his agenda to must-pass legislation, he's split it off and left it for dead.

 

But even outside of the legislature, Biden could take steps to make things better and improve Dem's chances in the fall. In addition to the steps on abortion mentioned in the quote above, he could forgive at least some student loan debt, as promised during the campaign. But he's refused to do that.

 

People waited in line for hours to give Dems the power they now enjoy. But all the Dems have given in return is an endless stream of excuses.

 

That will surely result in a Republican landslide this fall, and then it's just one more election before we lose everything.

[Lord Liaden]

8 hours ago, Lectryk said:

 

Sure, it's possible.  A lot of things are possible, if we could martial the unified political willpower :)  The likelihood of that happening (national ban) is inverse to the likelihood that Mitch is chumming the waters to try to gin up votes for the mid terms.  If he's saying 'it's possible', it's not going to happen.  The Republicans would need 60 to 65 seats, to allow 'moderate' party members who would those thier seats if they voted for a ban cover of not voting 'Aye', while still keeping a 50 vote majority.  And they'd need control of the House by a similar margin, and the Presidency, since they wouldn't have the numbers to override a veto.  So - certainly possible.  Likely?  The numbers haven't been that favorable for the party, ever.  

 

I'm sorry, but I can't let remarks like that slide any more. You're looking at the situation as though it will continue to be politics as usual. I respectfully submit that it will not. The Republican Party, at the national and state level, are instituting policies designed to secure the numbers for them despite the will of the people. Gerrymandering. Voter suppression. Placing their loyalists in key election-deciding offices. If this process isn't halted and reversed, they will have a lock on power regardless of what the real vote is.

 

I also used to think Mitch and other Republicans were just "chumming the waters." I no longer believe that. Books are being banned in schools, books with the actual history of America's past sins, books addressing issues around race and gender, books describing the rise of fascist states. The GOP want Americans ignorant, and thereby manipulable and controllable.

 

There's no surprise in remarks by the likes of Matt Gaetz that "over-educated women" are problematic, or by Mike Pence that American society has to return to "traditional Christian family values." But that's not fringe any more, it's become mainstream Republican talking points. Are we supposed to believe it's all just talk, that there's no intent behind it by the privileged white men doing it? We have legislation up for debate in more than one state right now, that would classify abortion as murder. The mask is morality, but the true face is control of women's lives.

 

Most alarming to me is recent statements from SCOTUS, like this leaked draft ruling that calls the very concept of right to privacy into question, from which many progressive rulings have stemmed: gay marriage, homosexual sex, access to contraception. We also have recent remarks from Justice Clarence Thomas blaming demonstrations by people on the political/social left -- expressions of free speech -- for the growing disillusionment of the American people for their governmental institutions. The classic fascist tactic of "othering" a group without actual power, blaming them for what goes wrong so people won't notice the hand in their pocket and knife at their throat.

 

There's an agenda at work here. There's a goal the Right is working toward, and it isn't the America we all grew up with. It's a fascist, racist, classist semi-theocracy in which a minority of people with the "right" attitudes, background and appearance make decisions for the rest of us, and the rest of us do what we're told or suffer. We've seen country after country go down this same road for a hundred years. The past six years have seen results we all thought "possible but unlikely" actually come to pass, and each has been worse than the last.

 

These people have to be voted out, now. It doesn't matter that Democrats aren't perfect and have fallen short of their promises and potential. They aren't the ones actively trying to subvert democracy and cast the United States back to the 19th Century. They can at least hold the line. If Americans don't vote Democrat, Republicans will do everything they can to hold onto power forever, and every person in one of the vulnerable groups they'll victimize will suffer for it. If the Republican Party is destroyed, another opposition party will arise, just as the Republicans under Lincoln replaced the Whigs. Probably a much healthier one. But not voting because no choice is good, is giving the keys to the one that's actively evil.

[DShomshak]

I do get impatient when earnest people wring their hands about American society being splintered into hostile factions. It's abundantly clear there are only two factions that matter, which hardly constitutes splintering. There's a straight white Fundamentalist Christian minority that seems to be driven by white-hot rage that it's losing its cultural and political privilege. And then there's everybody else, who seems to get along adequately. Buddhists got no beef with Black people. Jews got no beef with Asians. There's just one minority group that can't stand sharing the country with anyone else. Unfortunately, fervor counts in politics.

 

Because I'm me, I've tried to think of a solution even if I have no way to nudge it toward happening. My answer is, in fact, splitting the country -- sort of. Short version is, "Reservations for white people." The Black "homelands" created by Apartheid South Africa could be another model.

 

Designate several areas as semi-autonomous, whose residents can make some of their own laws and exempt from some Constitutional requirements. Residents must prove pure White ancestry back at least three generations. Christianity established as a state religion. (Which version? Work it out yourselves.) Homosexuality a crime. Abortion a crime. Whatever gender role regulations they want, and whatever other cultural bees in bonnets the residents want. But... They lose representation in Congress or to vote for the President. They have no foreign relations. Most importantly, any resident who finds the local social and political order unacceptable must be allowed to leave.

 

This lets the hard-core Republican base live in the tribal purity they seem to crave. The rest of us can get along with our lives and our normal political disputes, which can be resolves since they are about policy rather than identity.

 

This is the first time I've really tried enunciating the notion to anyone else, though, since I'm quite sure there's no way it could be carried out. At the least, there are probably insurmountable legal/constitutional impediments, but I am not expert enough to see them.

 

Dean Shomshak

[unclevlad]

12 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

Mitch McConnell has said publicly that with the overturning of Roe, a nationwide ban on abortion is possible. The topic is "worthy of discussion." One thing we should all be aware of by now, is that when the Republicans say the quiet part out loud, we should take them seriously. Depending on if and by what margin the GOP regain control of Congress after the mid term elections, it could be doable.

 

If the feds can pass one, then the states will sue on states' rights grounds, I expect.  

 

If such a bill DOES get passed and upheld, then.........I don't know.  The Blue states aren't that uniform in the first place, and they're isolated from each other.  Secession, or something like that?  It doesn't feel practical.  That said...remaining within a broken US may well feel equally non-viable VERY quickly.  

 

Oh, and I agree with LL.  The Republicans aren't giving lip service.  It's what they want to do.  It may have *seemed* like lip service for a long time, but nope.  They were way behind, so it appeared to be nothing but a talking point...but they've played a long game.  

[Lord Liaden]

1 hour ago, DShomshak said:

 

 

Because I'm me, I've tried to think of a solution even if I have no way to nudge it toward happening. My answer is, in fact, splitting the country -- sort of. Short version is, "Reservations for white people." The Black "homelands" created by Apartheid South Africa could be another model.

 

Designate several areas as semi-autonomous, whose residents can make some of their own laws and exempt from some Constitutional requirements. Residents must prove pure White ancestry back at least three generations. Christianity established as a state religion. (Which version? Work it out yourselves.) Homosexuality a crime. Abortion a crime. Whatever gender role regulations they want, and whatever other cultural bees in bonnets the residents want. But... They lose representation in Congress or to vote for the President. They have no foreign relations. Most importantly, any resident who finds the local social and political order unacceptable must be allowed to leave.

 

This lets the hard-core Republican base live in the tribal purity they seem to crave. The rest of us can get along with our lives and our normal political disputes, which can be resolves since they are about policy rather than identity.

 

 

 

This is a fascinating approach. Highly regressive, of course, but the American Right has become highly regressive generally. There are several problems I can see with it, in principle and practice. But the biggest one I see is that this isn't what that group of people want. For all that the "white Christian conservative" populace talk about social values and ethnic purity and following their beliefs, what they really want is power. They want status. They want to feel that people like them are on top, and to have everyone else acknowledge they're on top. Most of them are deeply insecure and frightened, and need someone to look down on and bully to feel good about themselves.

 

Indigenous reservations, apartheid homelands, have always been places for people who are different and have no power, to be shut away from those who do and want nothing to do with them, aside from using them for labor, and of course to feel superior to. It's hard to convince yourself you're on top when most of the world around you ignores you. As for the people pulling the strings of this movement, they won't be content to be big fish in small ponds. They've swum in the ocean, and aspire to be the top of the food chain.

[Joe Walsh]

10 dead, 3 wounded in shooting by self-described white supremacist whose manifesto tells us he believes the racist replacement theory that non-whites are being brought into the country to replace white people.

 

Since this garbage is frequently pushed by Tucker Carlson, should he, his sponsors, and Fox News be held to account?

[Old Man]

19 minutes ago, GM Joe said:

10 dead, 3 wounded in shooting by self-described white supremacist whose manifesto tells us he believes the racist replacement theory that non-whites are being brought into the country to replace white people.

 

Since this garbage is frequently pushed by Tucker Carlson, should he, his sponsors, and Fox News be held to account?

Of course. But they won’t. 

[Pariah]

Tell me you've never seen Star Trek without telling me you've never seen Star Trek.

 

[Iuz the Evil]

As someone who lives in California, the heart of progressive political supremacy in the United States, this resonates with me. Goddamn people, I’ve supported the party for the past 28 years in every election. Now I’ve got a Governor who is so untouchable that PG&E can literally plead guilty to manslaughter of our citizenry (84 times in Paradise alone) and they’re untouchable by political fiat. Violence and crime are steadily increasing, and James Carville is derided as insufficient in his political litmus test.

 

Know how I know we’ve lost our way? Frankly getting destroyed in November is entirely predictable, at a National level. But here our Governor doesn’t even feel the need to campaign.

 

 Depressing.

[Lord Liaden]

48 minutes ago, Pariah said:

Tell me you've never seen Star Trek without telling me you've never seen Star Trek.

 

 

It wouldn't even matter to Fox execs if they realized this is absurdly wrong. They have an agenda to push and an audience to brainwash.

[Ternaugh]

1 minute ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

It wouldn't even matter to Fox execs if they realized this is absurdly wrong. They have an agenda to push and an audience to brainwash.

 

Reading the article, the author realized that it was absurdly wrong, but decided that "Woke" = partisan (Democrat), and decided to use a clickbait title. That part of the argument was that media companies shouldn't be partisan is apparently lost on News Corp's Fox News.

[Old Man]

19 hours ago, Ternaugh said:

 

Reading the article, the author realized that it was absurdly wrong, but decided that "Woke" = partisan (Democrat), and decided to use a clickbait title. That part of the argument was that media companies shouldn't be partisan is apparently lost on News Corp's Fox News.

It’s not lost on them at all, or at least not their lawyers. That’s why it’s technically Fox News “Commentary”. 

[Pariah]

After Buffalo shooting, Liz Cheney tells Republicans to stop enabling white supremacy

[unclevlad]

1 hour ago, Pariah said:

After Buffalo shooting, Liz Cheney tells Republicans to stop enabling white supremacy

 

The problem is that Cheney's been stamped as a wannabe Democrat for her "disloyalty" so anything she says is ignored by the Republican leadership.  They're doing everything they can to remove all influence, and will be aiming to unseat her in the primaries.  

[DShomshak]

2 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

The problem is that Cheney's been stamped as a wannabe Democrat for her "disloyalty" so anything she says is ignored by the Republican leadership.  They're doing everything they can to remove all influence, and will be aiming to unseat her in the primaries.  

I'm sure she knows it's useless. It was still worth doing.

 

Dean Shomshak

Just heard on All Things Considered: Ben Franklin's Handy Home Abortion Guide. Because abortion "isn't deeply rooted in American culture."

 

https://www.npr.org/2022/05/16/1099244635/for-ben-franklin-abortion-was-basic-arithmetic

 

Dean Shomshak