CSL question

[Arcangle]

I only have 6E Basic, and I need some clarification on how CSL's apply to melee weapons. Let me know if these examples are correct:

 

• 2-pt CSL: Broadsword (clear enough, it’s in the book)
• 3-pt CSL: Swords? (The example in the sidebar is Pistols, so I’m guessing this makes sense.)
• 5-pt CSL: All melee weapons?
• 8-pt CSL: All HTH attacks (clear enough, it’s in the book)
• 10-pt CSL: All attacks (clear enough, it’s in the book)

 

So it’s the 3-pt and 5-pt level that I need clarification on.

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

That's right!!!!

[Vondy]

Correct.

[bluesguy]

I only have 6E Basic, and I need some clarification on how CSL's apply to melee weapons. Let me know if these examples are correct:

• 2-pt CSL: Broadsword (clear enough, it’s in the book)

With a 2pt CSL you can only use it for +1 OCV.

 

• 3-pt CSL: Swords? (The example in the sidebar is Pistols, so I’m guessing this makes sense.)

 

+1 OCV/DCV and DC

 

 

• 5-pt CSL: All melee weapons?

 

Same as above for +1 OCV or DCV or adding to DC (which you actually need +2 CSL to do)

 

All Melee weapons means any common melee weapon in your campaign. So clubs, swords, knives, mace, axe, etc. But not with a punch.

 

 

• 8-pt CSL: All HTH attacks (clear enough, it’s in the book)
• 10-pt CSL: All attacks (clear enough, it’s in the book)

So it’s the 3-pt and 5-pt level that I need clarification on.

 

I hope that helps

[Alcamtar]

Other than unarmed attacks, what does 8 pt include that is excluded from 5 pt?

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

Some Martial Arts Weapons, Some Vehicle Weapons, and HTH Attack Powers.

[ghost-angel]

Weapons aside;

8pt CSLs will also work with all Maneuvers; while 5pt CSLs are defined as specific Martial Arts Maneuvers.

[bigdamnhero]

Other than unarmed attacks, what does 8 pt include that is excluded from 5 pt?

That's the main difference right there, to include most martial arts attacks.

[Alcamtar]

Hmm.

So for a Fantasy Hero fighter who uses melee weapons and also has a few MA maneuvers, can his Swords CSL be used when using his Sword with a maneuver?

 

If not, that seems odd because it seems to me that MA maneuvers are just a special case of regular maneuvers that cost pts, and regular CSLs work with regular maneuvers. Put another way, the standard maneuvers are just 0-pt everyman MA maneuvers.

[bigdamnhero]

Yes. (Assuming he has Weapon Element: Swords with his MA of course.)

[Hyper-Man]

Weapons aside;

8pt CSLs will also work with all Maneuvers; while 5pt CSLs are defined as specific Martial Arts Maneuvers.

 

Not quite ALL Maneuvers. 

 

The optional Dive For Cover roll can only be improved by 12 point Overall Skill Levels or Skill Levels with the appropriate Movement Ability.

 

HM

[Arcangle]

Thanks everyone!

[Alcamtar]

Yes thanks, it was helpful to me too

[Narf the Mouse]

Hmm.

So for a Fantasy Hero fighter who uses melee weapons and also has a few MA maneuvers, can his Swords CSL be used when using his Sword with a maneuver?

I'd probably say "Yes" to "Martial Strike", and "No" to "Nerve Strike". Between there is GM's judgement and plenty of room for discussion, I think.

[bigdamnhero]

I'd probably say "Yes" to "Martial Strike", and "No" to "Nerve Strike". Between there is GM's judgement and plenty of room for discussion, I think.

Yes, but I think the distinction is I probably wouldn't let someone use Nerve Strike with a sword in the first place, not whether or not the CSL applies. [/quibbling]

[ghost-angel]

Why not Nerve Strike? Sounds like a solid hit with the pommel to a nerve cluster, or throat, or something to me... there's lot of SFX for Nerve Strike and not all of a sword is sharp parts...

[Narf the Mouse]

Why not Nerve Strike? Sounds like a solid hit with the pommel to a nerve cluster, or throat, or something to me... there's lot of SFX for Nerve Strike and not all of a sword is sharp parts...

 

Weapons aside;

8pt CSLs will also work with all Maneuvers; while 5pt CSLs are defined as specific Martial Arts Maneuvers.

If it's limited to specific manoeuvres, then some sub-set has to be chosen. And generally, AFAIK, people learn to cut and thrust with swords, because it's generally more effective.

 

...Or did you mean something else?

[ghost-angel]

If the CSL is limited to Martial Maneuvers then you can not use any non-martial maneuvers. Period.

 

If it's an 8pt CSL, you can use it with (almost) all maneuvers.

 

But if you're going to expand the 5pt to include maneuvers outside the Martial Maneuvers, then there's no specific reason to exclude Nerve Strike based on SFX. You'd need a better reason than that. Personally though - 5pt "Martial Style" CSLs can not be used on any Maneuver that isn't a Martial Style. Otherwise they're not distinguishable from HtH CSLs.

[TheDarkness]

If it's limited to specific manoeuvres, then some sub-set has to be chosen. And generally, AFAIK, people learn to cut and thrust with swords, because it's generally more effective.

 

...Or did you mean something else?

Ghost Angel has a good point. Sometimes, you want to KO your opponent, and you happen to be holding a sword. The pommel would certainly be a good case for such a strike.

[Ninja-Bear]

Why not Nerve Strike? Sounds like a solid hit with the pommel to a nerve cluster, or throat, or something to me... there's lot of SFX for Nerve Strike and not all of a sword is sharp parts...

I had to create a power to represent this by RAW. Btw in RL the advantage of a kubaton is that you can access pressure points with that little blunt stick and it hurts more than just using your hands.

[Ninja-Bear]

Iirc, I bought it as naked HA with NND OAF. This is weird because by RAW your normal strength doesn't add to NND maneuver but by buying it as a HA power it does.

[Hugh Neilson]

I fall to "reasonable interpretation". A nerve strike? Only if you are using the sword, which means you have a maneuver in a package with Weapon Element: Sword, not because you have a Nerve Strike and are holding a melee weapon.

 

A Grab? That's going to be possible with a very limited group of weapons.

 

And let's not dismiss "just hand to hand" attacks. You won't always have a weapon, nor is it inconceivable it will be Disarmed.

[Arcangle]

Next step is I want to limit CSL’s to the 3-point option. I plan to use the “Optional Equal Damage Hand-to-Hand Weapons Table” on page 37 of the 6E Equipment Guide, so I'll start with the category headers:

 

• Axes
• Clubs
• Hammers and Maces
• Polearms
• Swords
• Unusual

 

The last group is problematic: quarterstaff, lance, and morningstar-- it seems like this is the "Other" category. For consistency and simplicity’s sake, I’ll make each of these weapons a separate 3-point CSL. Might make sense from a realism POV, since all three are a bit more complex to use.

 

Thoughts?

[bigdamnhero]

Why not Nerve Strike? Sounds like a solid hit with the pommel to a nerve cluster, or throat, or something to me... there's lot of SFX for Nerve Strike and not all of a sword is sharp parts...

Fair point. (Tho it's a pet peeve of mine in movies/TV when characters do this...don't get me started.) But either way the relevant question is "Can you do a Nerve Strike with a Sword?" If yes, then CSL with swords applies; if no, then it doesn't.

 

The last group is problematic: quarterstaff, lance, and morningstar-- it seems like this is the "Other" category. For consistency and simplicity’s sake, I’ll make each of these weapons a separate 3-point CSL. Might make sense from a realism POV, since all three are a bit more complex to use.

I usually put lance under polearms, but YMMV. I'd let players buy 2pt CSLs with individual "Unusual" weapons, but they can't buy them as a group.

[Ninja-Bear]

I fall to "reasonable interpretation". A nerve strike? Only if you are using the sword, which means you have a maneuver in a package with Weapon Element: Sword, not because you have a Nerve Strike and are holding a melee weapon.

 

A Grab? That's going to be possible with a very limited group of weapons.

 

And let's not dismiss "just hand to hand" attacks. You won't always have a weapon, nor is it inconceivable it will be Disarmed.

I believe the spear style gives you a nerve strike as you use the butt end of the spear to strike yet you cannot add your spear damage to it.