D&D 5e to Hero 6e

[eepjr24]

I am working on providing some additional options to the great content already provided by KillerShrike around playing Hero in the D&D setting. As with any conversion there will be some differences, but I hope to keep the spirit of the setting and ease the way for folks wanting to use it.

 

I am looking for some additional eyes to take a look at what I have so far and provide feedback. I am open to feedback around how the setting is being converted, points of specific spells or templates, ideas for how to improve, etc. I have the great majority of the cantrips plus a start on 1st level spells and over half of the background templates completed at this point. if you would like to take a look, the content is available at http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Contributions/eepjr24/.

 

You can respond to this post or send me a message on the boards here, I generally check them daily. Thank you in advance for any help!

 

- Ernie

[shadowcat1313]

going to take a better look a things tommorow, will see what I can do

[Tholomyes]

Any reason 0-level spells are single use? In 5e cantrips are infinite use, and it seems strange to make them back to being single use

[eepjr24]

I am still debating about that one. I kept them as 1 charge because it fits the rest of the Vancian magic system rules on KillerShrikes site for 2e and 3e, plus other home brews based in Vancian systems. For myself the classes that have separate MP's will not have that limitation and will remove it for likely 0 cost change as they will be in fixed (ultra) slots. For VPP it is slightly more complex, but I modified the limitation and will have the characters pay for the real cost without the single charge limitation. This will be noted in the spell caster templates when they are up.

 

- E

[Alcamtar]

Have you tried building Magic Missile in 6e yet? We couldn't really do it justice in only 30 AP.

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

Have you tried building Magic Missile in 6e yet? We couldn't really do it justice in only 30 AP.

Blast 4.5d6 AoE 1 Meter Radius. (+1/4) 29 APs Gestures (-1/4) Incantation (-1/4) Extra Time (Dealayed Phase; -1/4) Cannot Be Spread (-1/4) 14 RPs. 

 

Standard Effect is 14 STUN 5 BODY.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Its tough to get right in 30 active points.  Magic Missile is one of those powers that's more expensive than a level 1 spell but I came up with a "No Normal Evasion" variant for ACV so its a +1 advantage to require a stat roll to avoid the attack and not DCV.  Then you build it AVAD vs power defense or something alternate (magic defense, or something) at +1 and you can make a 1 or 2d6 blast work right.

 

The problems come when you want it to hit more than one target, and the price starts going nuts.  Autofire is +1 added because its against an alternate defense.  And its harder to simulate how Magic Missile works hitting varied targets at will with autofire.  Area Effect does it pretty well (AE any is good for strange configurations) but without the "accurate selective" advantage from the Advanced Player Guide it gets weird because you have to roll over and over to get what you want.

[eepjr24]

KS had this worked up for it:

 

EB 1d6+1 (vs. ED), Lingering +1 Phase (+1/4), AOE Accurate (One Hex; +1/2), Affects Desol Any form of Desolidification (+1/2), NND ([standard]; Shield Spell and Magics based on it, [Force] effects; +1), Does BODY (+1) (30 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Extra Phase (-1 3/4), Extra Time (Full Phase, Delayed Phase, -3/4), Gestures (-1/4)

 

I went with this:

 

1d6+1 RKA vs PD: Force, Area of Effect Radius: 4m Accurate (+1/2) (30 Active Points); 1 Charge (-2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Limited Range: 40m (-1/4), Extra Time: Delayed Phase (-1/4)

 

 

The spell is of course overpowered at level 1 as it appears in D&D, which is why we have trouble modeling in. =) And why every mage has it.

[Hyper-Man]

Here's a d20 to 5e version I did several years ago that could easily be converted to 6e rules. Unfortunately, it exceeds 30 Active Points.

 

from http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/66879-magic-missile-style-spell-in-a-vpp-with-modifiers/?p=1703232

 

32 Magic Missile: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6, Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; only affects accuracy of selective AOE range; +1/2), No Normal Defense ([standard]; +1), Does BODY (+1), Autofire (5 shots; +1 1/2), Area Of Effect (10" Radius; effective range of multiple missiles; +1 1/4), Selective (+1/4) (97 Active Points); 5 Charges (-3/4), Cannot Use Targeting (-1/2), Spell (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/4) - END=[5]

edited:

and a complete d20 version conversion:

15 Magic Missile - 9th Level Caster: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6-1, Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; Accuracy Of Selective; +1/2), Affects Desolidified Any form of Desolidification (+1/2), No Range Modifier (+1/2), No Normal Defense (Magic Resistance; +1), Does BODY (+1), Area Of Effect (5" Radius; 1 Selective 1 Hex Accurate Missile Per Charge; +1), Selective (+1/4), Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1) (72 Active Points); Limited Power (Living Targets Only; -1), 5 Charges (-3/4), Cannot Use Targeting (-1/2), Spell (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), No Knockback (-1/4), Limited Range (-1/4) - END=[5]

9 Magic Missile - 1st Level Caster: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6-1, No Range Modifier (+1/2), Affects Desolidified Any form of Desolidification (+1/2), Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; Accuracy Of Selective; +1/2), No Normal Defense (Magic Resistance; +1), Does BODY (+1), Area Of Effect (4" Radius; 1 Selective 1 Hex Accurate Missile Per Charge; +1), Selective (+1/4) (57 Active Points); 1 Charge (-2), Limited Power (Living Targets Only; -1), Cannot Use Targeting (-1/2), Spell (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), No Knockback (-1/4), Limited Range (-1/4) - END=[1]

 

 

HM

[Christopher R Taylor]

Burning Hands is actually really powerful too, but its pretty simple to simulate: short no range cone fire blast.  Pretty cheap.

[Chris Goodwin]

I keep thinking this might be one of those "crunchy bits you shouldn't try to replicate".  Hero just doesn't do auto-hit.  

[IndianaJoe3]

I keep thinking this might be one of those "crunchy bits you shouldn't try to replicate".  Hero just doesn't do auto-hit.  

 

I fiddled with the numbers at one point and estimated that it was about a +1 Advantage, with a mandatory "No Range Modifier" if appropriate. I based it off of AoE: Radius, single target, with the assumption that if the attack missed the target's hex by less than the radius, the target was still affected.

[eepjr24]

<shrug> The +1/4 "Accurate" is close enough for me in most Heroic Campaigns, especially given the fact that it is a level 1 spell. If I was going to worry about it, I think a +1 is about right. That would give you the entire power again, with another roll to attack, the odds of missing both of them (rolling 3 ones) being somewhere in the neighborhood of .002%. I can hand wave the other 1 in 50,000 times.

 

- E

[eepjr24]

Note that all of those assume that Dive for Cover is not an option or do not take it into account.

[Mister E]

Summon invisible stealth magic missiles ahead of time & hide them in a sleeve.

 

When commanded to attack the missiles fly around until they hit the target.

 

After making contact the magic missiles pop doing damage & for each missile a zap of arcane energy shoots from one of the wizard's fingers.

 

Mundane witnesses will fail to actually see the missiles traveling & will only note the unerring seeming cantact discharges.

[IndianaJoe3]

Note that all of those assume that Dive for Cover is not an option or do not take it into account.

 

A +1 Advantage is the equivalent of a 16m Radius, Accurate. That would be a -8 penalty to Diving for Cover.

[eepjr24]

A +1 Advantage is the equivalent of a 16m Radius, Accurate. That would be a -8 penalty to Diving for Cover.

Sure. But the option exists. As does the option of rolling a 3, one in 216 times or thereabouts. We can quibble about with which way it is more likely to miss, but in both examples it can miss. And that is pretty much by design in Hero.

 

And all of this doesn't discuss the differences between AC and DCV + Defenses, since even if it hit's in HERO it may not damage as it does in D&D. For the 30 AP used for 1st level spells that gets you a 1d6 RKA (assuming you don't need No Range Mods on a 40m max range), which will not damage someone in plate mail or chain mail. And it will only damage someone in boiled leather or with a level of combat luck 50% of the time.

 

I like both systems well enough but in several areas they are largely incompatible, especially in balancing power levels and handling absolutes.

 

- E

[Christopher R Taylor]

Here's my solution to the "always hits" option:

 

No Normal Evasion (NNE).

A power with this advantage requires no to hit roll; it always successfully hits the target. Powers ought with NNE do no Body damage by default (but can be bought to do Body damage with that advantage). Each power purchased with NNE must have a way that the victims can avoid being hit, with GM approval. No Normal Evasion still suffers from the normal restrictions of the power it is bought for: if it is bought on a mental power, then it still requires Line of Sight; if it does stun damage, it will have no effect on a target that takes no stun; if it is bought on a normal Blast, it has its normal range and will not strike a target that is completely concealed behind a barrier.

 

NNE is not Indirect, nor does it ignore barriers or line of sight. Normal defenses still apply, and when the character is hit, hit locations are determined (if any) apply as usual. Powers with this advantage are considered special attacks - thus Autofire and Reduced END are increased in cost. NNE can be a very dangerous power if bought with certain advantages, such as NND and autofire. The GM should consider this a companion Advantage to Attack vs Alternate Defense and must approve any use of NNE, as it is potentially unbalancing.

 

In campaigns with hit locations, powers with the No Normal Evasion advantage still require the player to roll the location hit. The character can attempt to hit a specific location as normal with a to hit roll, but if he misses, the location is rolled up randomly: the attack will not miss, it simply may miss the intended location.

NNE is normally a +1 advantage. (stop sign)

 

related is this:

 

ACV "Saving Throw"

There is an alternate construction that players can purchase for ACV, similar to the “Saving Throw” used in other game systems.  With this construct, the spell always hits, unless the target makes some sort of roll.  If this roll is one that all characters have at a normal level (such as a characteristic roll or perception roll), then the advantage is +1/2.

 

If the roll is an unusual one or one that characters normally only have as a familiarity (such as stealth or a magic skill roll), then the advantage is is +3/4.

 

If the roll is modified by -1/10 active points of the spell it is +1/4 more of an advantage.

[eepjr24]

 

Here's my solution to the "always hits" option:

 

It's nice that everyone is arriving at about the same levels for powers like this, anyway.

 

Do you have a similar mechanic for "Ignores all defenses"? Or would you simply buy it as NND versus Shield Spells and similar, plus force effects? Then Does Body? And Affects Desolid? And finally Autofire at the +1 1/4 level?

 

So a 1d6 Blast would be (5*5.75) = 29 AP, would do 0-2 Body and 1-6 stun up to 3 times? Average of 3 Body, 9 stun on a single target. That is another possible way to build it, does not look too overpowered.

 

- E

[Christopher R Taylor]

Its just an NND yeah.  Autofire doesn't really work, you'd have to use Area Effect Any with the "accurate selective" advantage from Advanced Players Guide - selective, but you don't roll, you just hit who you mean to for +3/4.

[Hyper-Man]

One of the biggest issues with trying to convert some the iconic 1st Level D&D spells into HERO is the difference between level based Hit Points and HERO's relatively 'static' BODY.  Magic Missile is so valued because it has or had the potential to 1 shot kill an opponent (or 4 HP Magic User) right out of the gate for a 1st level caster. In HERO, It's just not possible to build an attack that is both 'near instant HIT & near 1 shot kill' on 30 active points.  You can do one or the other but not at the same time. In D&D, the increase in the number of missiles that experienced casters get is a direct reaction to the level based hit point mechanic the system uses.  In a game like HERO where there is no direct equivalent to Hit Points then there is really no need to build in a mechanic for multiple missiles via Charges.  An experienced caster could add No Range and Selective to the AOE Accurate Advantage later. Another approach would be to create a 'Deadly Blow' like 'Talent' for experienced spell casters so they can enhance their 'known spells' without actually changing the spell build.  This is especially appropriate in 6e since Deadly Blow is now built via Combat Skill Levels used only to enhance damage.

 

Here's a very simple 6e version built on 30 Active Points based on these ideas.

 

6 Magic Missile for 6e: RKA 1d6-1, Area Of Effect Accurate (4m Radius; +1/2), Attack Versus Alternate Defense ("Magic Resistance"; All Or Nothing; +1/2), Does BODY (+1) (30 Active Points); 1 Charge (-2), Limited Power Only Affects Living Targets (-1), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), No Knockback (-1/4), Limited Range (-1/4) - END=[1]

 

HM

[Hyper-Man]

I've had a strange idea that I keep mulling over since Chris posted this in another thread:

from:
http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/93164-recovering-charges/?p=2499847

    I like to play around with things like Differing Modifiers to represent this.  Build a Power that represents the spell as it is cast; give that Power one charge.  I'd say make it a Recoverable charge because of the prep.  Build another Power using the Differing Modifiers rules that represents the prep for the first Power.  For instance:
     
    Fireball:  Blast, 8d6 (vs. ED).  40 Base Points.  AoE Radius (8m; +1/2).  60 Active Points.  IAF (guano and sulfur; -1/2), Gestures (both hands; -1/2), Incantations (-1/4); 1 Charge (Recoverable, -1 1/4).  17 Real Points.  
     
    Now, you don't charge points for the Fireball.  Instead, you use the Fireball as the basis for your Differing Modifiers:
     
    Prep Fireball:  Fireball. 17 Base Points.  Differing Modifiers (+1/4).  21 Active Points.  Extra Time (20 minutes; -2 1/2), OAF (spell book; -1), Must Be Well Rested (-1/2).  4 Real Points.
     
    When you "activate" the Prep Fireball power, it grants you one use of the Fireball.  Once you've used it, you need to prepare Fireball again by being well rested and reading your spell book for 20 minutes.  
     
    The Differing Modifiers is given a minimum value of +1/4 to match the requirements under Usable On Others, even though you're not granting it to anyone and it's not technically UOO.  I'd recommend reading up on the Differing Modifiers rules in both 6e1 (or 5ER if that's what you're using) and the full Fantasy Hero book; you're effectively creating a "magic item" that isn't really an item.

 

 

 

This is probably not an original idea but I think this simple 'leap' could be used to create a spell system where:

1. Characters only ever purchase the 'Prep' version of any spell they know (or have written in their 'spellbook').
2. The spell 'frameworks' can then be simplified and modeled to behave more like equipment pools from Dark Champions where how much 'equipment' can be carried on an adventure is determined by a Perk.

Thoughts?



HM

[Tholomyes]

That's actually a really cool idea. I've only played a couple fantasy games in HERO, but what always stuck out at me was that magic always seemed like it was either to "superhero-y" (albeit often with heavy limitations) or felt like it was skirting around the design philosophy of "you get what you pay for". I'd have to put a little more thought into how abusable it could be (not to say that it's a bad idea, but it would give an idea of what to look out for when approving characters, if I do end up using it), but it seems like a solid system for magic.

[eepjr24]

Looks less abusable than some of the other magic systems I have seen in FH6e and other places.

[eepjr24]

If anyone is following along or would like to see the latest content, all backgrounds are now complete, along with all the profession / class write ups except for Wizard. Invocations are not yet posted for Warlocks, but domains are complete for Clerics, Origins are complete for Sorcerers and all other class abilities are modeled to the best of my ability and interpretation. 

 

If you are interested in Killer Shrikes original spell conversions, I have added back effect names to something like 2/3rds of them from the SQL Injection debacle of 2010. These will continue to be updated as I take breaks from the D&D 5e content.

 

Next up on 5e content will be the race templates. These are probably the least needed to actually start a game so I saved them til last. Once that is complete I will add in the rest of the 1st level spells (they are all converted, just need to format) and see what piques my fancy next.

 

Linky:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Contributions/eepjr24/Default.aspx

 

EDIT: As always, feedback and constructive criticism is welcomed, either in the thread or in PM.