Mach 1 Move Through

[DasBroot]

Well, that was interesting. Guess I've got a two fold question.

 

A character in my game basically flew straight down at most of his non-combat speed and hit the ground at about mach 1, more or less (the non combat speed he was moving was 600 with a speed of 6).

 

That's fine. Lots of places in Champions Complete told him he'd be taking 100d6 for doing so since the ground is a cruel, cruel high body mistress.

 

Thing is he did it to defeat the supervillain who he had grabbed at the time¹

 

Part one of the question - was I right about the 100d6?

 

Part two - Can you carry an actively resisting ticked off supervillain at non-combat speeds if they fail to break free (repeatedly)? Control is not an attack action but is it still a half phase action (thus preventing using it with non-combat multipliers)?  Since it's also, technically, how you carry allies as well (they're grabbed but not resisting) that would seem pretty limiting and genre defying (Superman can't carry Lois to Paris in a few minutes for a lunch? A hero can't fly the unconscious supervillain from New York to Stronghold before they wake up?).

 

Under grab itself the line under grab and movement that seemed to relate most was:

 

" The Grabber can move and bring the victim along, subject to normal rules of transporting other characters."

 

What *are* the normal rules for transporting other characters? I couldn't find any further references anywhere in Champions Complete.

 

1 Who was, indeed, built a little too tough for them to harm conventionally - which they knew and is why they acquired a plot device, deliberately and over the course of the session, from the scientist that gave the villain her superpowers that would 'partially reverse the dark energy infusion that created her' (a Drain against her Unified powers - specifically her strength, pd, ed, and recovery)... and then ... didn't.

[Nolgroth]

Page 150: The Grabber can move and bring the victim along, subject to normal rules of transporting other characters. Remember that there are more movement modes than Flight. Some of them cannot be used on other characters unless a Power Advantage is bought. In this case, Flight, I would rule that as long as the character can carry the opponent, that's all that is required.

 

Page 151 states that a Move Through can be performed at Non-Combat speeds, but not at Megascaled or EDM, FTL or Teleportation. The damage is velocity/6 d6.  600/6=100d6. So yeah. 

 

As GM, I would rule that he and the big bad takes the damage. For my own sanity, I'd impose the Standard Effect rule (300 Stun, 100 Body Normal Damage) but if you really want to roll the dice...

 

Hopefully the PC has some sort of Damage Reduction. You could rule that the big bad absorbs some of the damage. BB's PD + BODY maybe. Otherwise that is going to hurt, but not for very long. Such is the cost for heroic sacrifice.

 

That's my $0.02. 

[Tech]

I wouldn't say he takes 100d6. I seem to recall from an earlier version of Champions that you can only take as much damage as the BODY + DEF of an object, in this case, a hex/inch of ground (approx 6 ft). They'd hit, take a lot of damage, and continue on through to the next hex, etc etc, slowly depleting how far they travel. The ground doesn't have 100 body; let's assume 6 feet of it has 13 body and 2 def, so that's 15d6 max (but repeatedly until they stop). This gives the result of a large hole in the ground. This is both dramatic and in the style of a comic book.

[Hugh Neilson]

As GM, I would rule that he and the big bad takes the damage. For my own sanity, I'd impose the Standard Effect rule (300 Stun, 100 Body Normal Damage) but if you really want to roll the dice...

This is where Standard Effect is shown to be a sacrifice over rolling the dice. The average on 100d6 would be 350 points, not 300. There's no compelling reason we can't use "average effect" rather than "standard effect". Choosing to have a standard roll of 36 STUN, 12 BOD on a 12d6 Blast is ridiculous. For the number of times you would actually roll more than 6 under average, you give up every roll that would be 5 or less under average, and any hope of a good roll.

 

We worry a lot about "balance" when unbalance favours the character. We should worry about it when it prejudices the PC as well. Off topic, I know.

  

I wouldn't say he takes 100d6. I seem to recall from an earlier version of Champions that you can only take as much damage as the BODY + DEF of an object, in this case, a hex/inch of ground (approx 6 ft). They'd hit, take a lot of damage, and continue on through to the next hex, etc etc, slowly depleting how far they travel. The ground doesn't have 100 body; let's assume 6 feet of it has 13 body and 2 def, so that's 15d6 max (but repeatedly until they stop). This gives the result of a large hole in the ground. This is both dramatic and in the style of a comic book.

1 cubic meter of dirt has PD 0, ED 4 and 10 BOD from 6e V2 p 171, so that would be 10d6, losing 60m velocity each time, so 10 attacks at 10d6. That kind of sucks. Why doesn't dirt have any PD? Stone (with 5 PD and 19 BOD) would be more impressive.

 

Now, if we allow the full 100d6 as a hit on a "wall of earth", we should get to double the size of the hole for each BOD done over 10. That would be about 1,238 quintillion km assuming "a human size hole" is 1 meter. That seems a bit much. And as an improvised weapon, shouldn't the damage done to the ground be capped at the character's PD + BOD? A human travelling at terminal velocity would then inflict 10d6 (standard 8 BOD + 2PD), moving some dirt and making a hole, but not double the size of the hole for each extra BOD done from 30d6 (and leave a 1,048 km wide crater).

 

Sometimes, extrapolating the rules beyond what they were designed to handle doesn't work out all that well.

 

Isn't falling damage 1d6 per 2 meters velocity? That would be more like 300d6 (and make the above even more ridiculous).

 

Doesn't seem all that comic booky. I like Tech's approach, but the dirt stats aren't really making it work well, so bumping those stats might be the best answer. 15d6 6 times, and a 10d6 stop, seems a lot more comic booky, especially in that a really powerful, high DEF character might actually stagger out of the crater.

[bigbywolfe]

Falling has a maximum velocity so you will never hit 300d6. If I remember correctly you top out at 30.

[massey]

In this case, I might not worry about dice. Assuming the character has decent defenses (I mean if he's got 10 PD he's probably dead), I might not roll any dice at all. Or actually, pick up as many dice as you can, roll them, pretend to add them up, then roll them about 3 more times and act very serious as you scribble things down. Then look up at the player and shake your head 'no' with a serious frown on your face.

 

But I might just have the other players find him in an enormous crater. They can't detect any life signs, they call for an ambulance and rush him to the hospital, and then you end the game session there. When you begin the next session, you have a conversation with the player about what he wants to do next. If he lets the character die, he can bring in a new character with full XP, and the old character always has a chance of being resurrected later. Otherwise, the character will be at death's door, in a coma for several sessions, and he can play an NPC for a while until his original character recovers.

[Shigeru]

Falling has a maximum velocity so you will never hit 300d6. If I remember correctly you top out at 30.

This is my thought as well.

[DasBroot]

I wouldn't say he takes 100d6. I seem to recall from an earlier version of Champions that you can only take as much damage as the BODY + DEF of an object, in this case, a hex/inch of ground (approx 6 ft). They'd hit, take a lot of damage, and continue on through to the next hex, etc etc, slowly depleting how far they travel. The ground doesn't have 100 body; let's assume 6 feet of it has 13 body and 2 def, so that's 15d6 max (but repeatedly until they stop). This gives the result of a large hole in the ground. This is both dramatic and in the style of a comic book.

 

I have a house rule similar to that effect but I don't use house rules when asking clarifications on the RAW My house rule gives 'the ground' (or a mountain, etc) 30 body + its material hardness.  I usually use 5 meter 'chunks' to reflect that (even though as written 5 meters thick of dirt has something like 15 body).  They were in a canyon near Stronghold so I used brick for the PD: The character and villain took 35d6, 35d6, and 30d6 to total the 100d6 he should have taken and both survived as a result (well under -100 stun, though) and created a nearly 15 meter deep hole crater.

 

15d6 is way too low - a vault door would survive an impact of any velocity (dropped 100 meters or hitting the ground at mach 10).  10d6 is even worse.

 

Page 150: The Grabber can move and bring the victim along, subject to normal rules of transporting other characters. Remember that there are more movement modes than Flight. Some of them cannot be used on other characters unless a Power Advantage is bought. In this case, Flight, I would rule that as long as the character can carry the opponent, that's all that is required.

 

Page 151 states that a Move Through can be performed at Non-Combat speeds, but not at Megascaled or EDM, FTL or Teleportation. The damage is velocity/6 d6.  600/6=100d6. So yeah. 

 

As GM, I would rule that he and the big bad takes the damage. For my own sanity, I'd impose the Standard Effect rule (300 Stun, 100 Body Normal Damage) but if you really want to roll the dice...

 

Hopefully the PC has some sort of Damage Reduction. You could rule that the big bad absorbs some of the damage. BB's PD + BODY maybe. Otherwise that is going to hurt, but not for very long. Such is the cost for heroic sacrifice.

 

That's my $0.02. 

 

That was exactly how I ruled it in play.  It looked rules accurate but sets a bad precedent in a way - after all, immediately after it happened That Guy  (every group has That Guy) began to ponder the possibilities of using teleport on the power diving hero (who is not That Guy's character, which has never done a heroic thing in its life) at the last second so only the villain splats... weaponizing a desperation move (and obliterating the DC14 cap). 

 

Falling has a maximum velocity so you will never hit 300d6. If I remember correctly you top out at 30.

 

Yep. Terminal velocity is 60 m/segment which is that 30d6.  

[Hugh Neilson]

Falling has a maximum velocity so you will never hit 300d6. If I remember correctly you top out at 30.

You hit 300d6 by flying straight down into the ground at 600 meters per second (ignoring any DEF/BOD limit the same as 100d6 does). A normal density human being accelerated only by gravity tops out at 60m/s by the rules, which means 30d6.

[Nolgroth]

Falling does not equal powered thrust downward, which is implied by the NCM statement. I considered that in my response.

 

I actually like Tech's answer more than my own. It is more complicated, but does seem a more reasonable accommodation to both genre convention and character survival. Sometimes an 'on the fly' (see what I did there) answer is going to be simpler.

 

I would be wary of That Guy Das Broot, Full Range and 'firing into melee' rules would apply. He might just grab the bad guy with his Usable on Others Teleport. Awkward.

[Hugh Neilson]

Are you suggesting that, when striking an object while moving at (say) 40 meters per second velocity, the consequences of the impact will depend on how you attained the velocity? When you are knocked back (uncontrolled movement) and strike an object, how much damage does that do? 1d6 per 2 meters' velocity. Just like falling.

 

Where this disconnects is the move through rules - colliding with an object typically inflicts velocity/6 dice. Yet that is less than he would take if attempting a move through against that object and failing to knock it back. Why? Perhaps we need to apply the simple rule that "The GM may alter this in the interest of game balance, common sense, and dramatic sense."

[Hyper-Man]

Technically, a character performing a Move Through should take full damage as well unless they inflict Knockback on the target.

 

 

It's arguable that Supes' did inflict KB on Grundy but Grundy didn't move since he was already in contact with the ground.

 

HM

[bigdamnhero]

Part one of the question - was I right about the 100d6?

 

Part two - Can you carry an actively resisting ticked off supervillain at non-combat speeds if they fail to break free (repeatedly)?

Taking them in reverse order, yes I'd allow it, assuming it was dramatically appropriate and didn't become a regular tactic. Given that the villain is resisting, I might say the hero can use NCM as long as he's only using Casual STR to maintain the hold, but if he has to use his full STR then the villain's squirming is enough to limit the hero to combat speed. I can't point at anything specific in RAW to support that ruling, but it seems to make dramatic sense to me.

 

1 cubic meter of dirt has PD 0, ED 4 and 10 BOD from 6e V2 p 171, so that would be 10d6, losing 60m velocity each time, so 10 attacks at 10d6. That kind of sucks. Why doesn't dirt have any PD? Stone (with 5 PD and 19 BOD) would be more impressive.

I think that's meant to be loose dirt, like a pile of dirt at a construction site. That, or it's a typo. I'd go with 5 PD and 13 BODY per hex, per values for stone on 6e2 p172. However, my understanding has always been that the BODY of an object depends on its overall mass, not one hex's worth. My brain is too tired at the moment to math out what the Earth's total BODY is based on that, but I'm pretty sure it's more than you can destroy even with 100d6. So the BODY of one hex is only relevant in determining the size of the crater. Taking an average damage roll of 100 BODY, minus the 5 PD, I'd say he destroys 95 BODY worth of ground, which works out to ~7.5 hexes worth, leaving hero and villain at the bottom of a ~15m hole in the ground.

 

And yes, unless he gets Knockback on the Earth

No. No he will not.

our hero will probably take full damage as well. 

 

Rolling 100d6? Just have the player roll 10 and move the decimal point.

[Marcus Impudite]

At 100d6 of damage (!), I'm fairly sure both characters involved in this would be reduced to the consistency of Chunky Salsa Dip on impact.

[Vondy]

Remember that both move-throughs and move-bys incurs fractional damage on the attacker as well.

 

If you do 300d6 you will incur 60d6 or 100d6 damage yourself. This is generally not a good idea.

 

However, that said, I agree that there should be a rational / mechanically workable maximum for added velocity damage.

 

And, the terminal velocity cap is a consistent, rational, and workable measure to use for that. 

 

So, using that assumption, you would do Base DC + v/10 with the added velocity damage reaching a cap at 30d6.

 

A Strength 80 villain moving at Mach 1 on a move through would do 16d6 +30d6 = 46d6.

 

Even so, how big are the to hit penalties on that attack?

[Lucius]

Remember that both move-throughs and move-bys incurs fractional damage on the attacker as well.

 

If you do 300d6 you will incur 60d6 or 100d6 damage yourself. This is generally not a good idea.

 

However, that said, I agree that there should be a rational / mechanically workable maximum for added velocity damage.

 

And, the terminal velocity cap is a consistent, rational, and workable measure to use for that. 

 

So, using that assumption, you would do Base DC + v/10 with the added velocity damage reaching a cap at 30d6.

 

A Strength 80 villain moving at Mach 1 on a move through would do 16d6 +30d6 = 46d6.

 

Even so, how big are the to hit penalties on that attack?

How big do they have to be before you can throw yourself at the ground -

 

and miss?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary asks if you can throw yourself at the ground - and mister?

[megaplayboy]

cough cough...Velocity Factor optional rules...cough cough

[Vondy]

cough cough...Velocity Factor optional rules...cough cough

 

Yup.

[DasBroot]

At 100d6 of damage (!), I'm fairly sure both characters involved in this would be reduced to the consistency of Chunky Salsa Dip on impact.

 

Actually you'd be surprised.  Even if I hadn't broken the damage up using my house rule the villain (PD 50, Body 40, Damage Reduction 50%) would have made it. The hero would have too - PD 35, DR 50%, Body 40..

 

It's a 14 DC game with armor caps of 35 (so 7 stun gets through per hit on average) but I encourage slapping damage reduction on top of it for tough characters since that 14 DC is routinely broken by 'tough' enemies (16 to 18 not uncommon - this enemy, that they were supposed to use weapon they spent the entire rest of the session acquiring on, had a 24d6 melee attack (it would have dropped to 18 after the Drain, and the rPD would have dropped to 42 - both standard 'boss; numbers).  Even the brick couldn't take that for long at the character caps (18 stun per hit was getting through).  Hence the desperation move that really wasn't called for.

[DasBroot]

cough cough...Velocity Factor optional rules...cough cough

 

Google says those are in an Advanced Player guide. INteresting. 

 

Remember that both move-throughs and move-bys incurs fractional damage on the attacker as well.

 

If you do 300d6 you will incur 60d6 or 100d6 damage yourself. This is generally not a good idea.

 

However, that said, I agree that there should be a rational / mechanically workable maximum for added velocity damage.

 

And, the terminal velocity cap is a consistent, rational, and workable measure to use for that. 

 

So, using that assumption, you would do Base DC + v/10 with the added velocity damage reaching a cap at 30d6.

 

A Strength 80 villain moving at Mach 1 on a move through would do 16d6 +30d6 = 46d6.

 

Even so, how big are the to hit penalties on that attack?

 

I like this.  It's enough to say 'you probably shouldn't do this'  without being 'roll a new character, Crater McCrashface'.

[megaplayboy]

Those optional rules are also in FReD(5th Edition, Revised).

[Christopher]

 

Well, that was interesting. Guess I've got a two fold question.

 

A character in my game basically flew straight down at most of his non-combat speed and hit the ground at about mach 1, more or less (the non combat speed he was moving was 600 with a speed of 6).

At 600m/turn I would say this movement crossed over into Megascale range. 3.600 meters per turn or 300m/segment is way beyoned that point for me.

The only reason that rule against Megascale Move-Maneuvers even exists is to avoid such ridicilous damage numbers. Just because the character aquired that speed other ways (using NCM multipliers), should not invalidate the same basic logic.

I see lots of reason to just disallow that, plain and simple. Just because the HERO rules do not explicitly forbids something does not mean it should not be forbidden on common sense/gamebreaking/similarity rules. Hero does not work by explicit forbidding of stuff like 99% of all other P&P RPG systems I know. It is it's biggest strength.

 

If you really want to do this (or just as thought exercise):

There are actually two important numbers to consider with excessive move maneuvers, derived from "using objects as weapons in superheroics":

A improvised weapon can not cause more then Body+PD dice damage. A barrier interfering with a Knockback/Move Maneuver can not cause more then Body+PD dice of damage. I call this "the maximum hardness" of something. A direct measure of how much force it can impart before it just breaks.

For a Character I would put that point at Body+PD+Negative Body they can have. All already lost points of course substracted. "All the BODY damage they can take in one hit and just about die, in D6".

 

A groundbased speedster doing a move maneuver could not cause more damage then his own maximum hardness and can not take more then his targets maximum hardness.

Impacting with 0.1 c does not mater if your body can't actually deliver more then 30d6 becaue it shatters from the strain.

 

Impacting the ground is tricky, and depends wich of the models for "destroying the earth" you are using.

APG II 113 actually list 2 Flavors to do that! You could easily derive the maximum hardness of the planet from that. Earth is 1.37 x 10^20 m³. And 1m³ Stone has a hardness of 19 Body + 5 PD*.

1. Destory each Cubic Meter seperately. It would require 2.6 x 10^21 Body or 7.4 x 10^20 Dice of Killing Damage to blow it up. That might be too hard however. Unless you just go for Megascale and AoE - the you just need a lot of coverage for a 24 Body attack.

2. Just add +1 Body for every doubling of thickness of a barrier. Earth needs 67 doublings (steps on the growth scale). But that would end up with only 86 body. This might make it a bit to easy to destroy the earth

3. Just apply the apropirate level of Growth to the one Cubic meter. APG 2 actually has a growth table that goes up to there and further.

 

My Answer:

Personally I prefer flavor 1 with AoE+Megascale on any "Mountain/Planet buster attacks". It makes the earth resonably solid, while not indestructible if you want to build a power for that. For blowing up mundane stuff (like cities) without instakilling bricks a lot of mileage can be taken out of just slapping a lot of Megascale AoE effect on a decently destructive attack.

 

For your example it would mean that the charcater would be hitting "a series of 24-Max-Hardness Barriers" until all the velocity is shed. Just as if you get knocked back through a series of 4 Hardness Walls. That those "layers" directly connect can be ignored for simplicity/sanities sake.

 

600m/segment mean 25 of those barriers would be needed for a full stop.

25 times 24d6 Damage, resisted with full defenses each roll.

Applying average roll rules that is 24 Body, 84 STUN per barrier "layer". 24 Body, 72 STUN standart rule. Compare that to the defenses. Multiply the result tims 25.

 

 

*And 10 ED. But unless you try to hit a Antimater entity with a Planet, this will not mater.

[DasBroot]

At 600m/turn I would say this movement crossed over into Megascale range. 3.600 meters per turn or 300m/segment is way beyoned that point for me.

The only reason that rule against Megascale Move-Maneuvers even exists is to avoid such ridicilous damage numbers. Just because the character aquired that speed other ways (using NCM multipliers), should not invalidate the same basic logic.

I see lots of reason to just disallow that, plain and simple. Just because the HERO rules do not explicitly forbids something does not mean it should not be forbidden on common sense/gamebreaking/similarity rules. Hero does not work by explicit forbidding of stuff like 99% of all other P&P RPG systems I know. It is it's biggest strength.

 

I agree in most situations.  As cool as that one scene in Justice League Unlmited where the Flash is running around the earth a few times a second and using passing strike on Lex Luthor possessed by Brainiac IS it's just not a feat that should be replicated in a Champion's game. A 'That's cool. Please don't do that.' is appropriate.

 

However, this is just a straight power dive to earth and could have just as easily come up if someone crashed their transport by accident instead of on purpose.  I'd find saying 'you can't fly into the side of a mountain'  harder than disallowing the mega-hyper-sonic-punch. At least until someone tried to make a routine combat tactic. 

 

 

 

Impacting the ground is tricky, and depends wich of the models for "destroying the earth" you are using.

APG II 113 actually list 2 Flavors to do that! You could easily derive the maximum hardness of the planet from that. Earth is 1.37 x 10^20 m³. And 1m³ Stone has a hardness of 19 Body + 5 PD*.

1. Destory each Cubic Meter seperately. It would require 2.6 x 10^21 Body or 7.4 x 10^20 Dice of Killing Damage to blow it up. That might be too hard however. Unless you just go for Megascale and AoE - the you just need a lot of coverage for a 24 Body attack.

 

My Answer:

Personally I prefer flavor 1 with AoE+Megascale on any "Mountain/Planet buster attacks". It makes the earth resonably solid, while not indestructible if you want to build a power for that. For blowing up mundane stuff (like cities) without instakilling bricks a lot of mileage can be taken out of just slapping a lot of Megascale AoE effect on a decently destructive attack.

 

I prefer the AoE per meter approach as well and already use a house rule version of it (nice to see in a sourcebook).  Their number of 19 is interesting - I arbitrarily use 30 for 5 meters.  The doubling approaches end up with ridiculous results like Ironclad being tougher to destroy than the earth.

 

I divied the dice up by 35 point barriers (as I said up thread in play the character took 35, 35, and 30d6 to total the 100d6). I like the idea of shedding the velocity instead (so he would have taken 35d6 x 17).  

 

Damage done to the target should definitely be restricted to the body + pd of the character.  The double body is an angle I didn't think of.

[massey]

I think it is perfectly appropriate to do the planet-crossing move-by, if you're in a JLA level game.

 

I don't mind 100D6 attacks being planet-crackers. But it is quite hard to get to 100D6. I wouldn't let a crashing jet do that level of damage. It's gonna cap out at Def+Body. A character won't, because they aren't an improvised weapon, they're a character. They paid points for whatever it is that they're doing.

 

I think if a player absolutely wanted to do a noncombat or megascale move through, here's what I'd do. I'd add 2D6 for each level of noncom. So a guy with 21" (42 meters) of flight, x8 ncm would get 7D6 from base movement, and +6D6 from the ncm. Still a lot of damage.

 

Normally in Champions, damage is exponential. A 55 Str is twice as strong as a 50. But movement damage is linear. +3" of movement is +1D6. Giving reduced damage for ncm would push things back towards the exponential system, while still allowing lots and lots of dice for a really high speed attack.

[Hyper-Man]

My rookie Flash doesn't need to hit non-combat velocities to do 20+ DC with a decent OCV of 9.

 

24) Infinite Mass Punch:  Hand-To-Hand Attack +12d6 (60 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4) Real Cost: 40

Notes: 16d6 with STR. 20d6 combined with Sacrifice Strike. Maximum Damage = 25d6 when combined with Passing Strike or Passing Throw and 90m Maximum combat move.

 

I don't think the character in the OP would necessarily need to actually do a Move Through to still do massive damage via Combat Movement IF they have control of the grabbed character and enough altitude and Flight to make a divebomb run, throw the bad guy straight DOWN and still pull up without hitting the ground themselves.  Remember, that Flight speed is doubled when going DOWN.

 

HM