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steph

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I wanted to come back to this, because "a greatsword does just 1 DC more than a knife" is an issue. But I don't believe that issue vanishes by imposing the doubling cap.

 

Let's move away from our powerful Warrior to Barney the Blacksmith. Barney is pretty strong - he has a 15 STR - from a life of hard labour. Barney normally carries a knife, which, with his STR modifier, brings him to 1d6+1. However, a hideous creature is rampaging outside Barney's shop, and no one is around to save him. As it crashes through the door, Barney grabs a Greatsword with which to defend himself, swinging it wildly, and connecting solidly with the Beast.

 

For 2DC - except he is too low for the STR min, so he does 1 1/2d6. Only 1 DC better than the Dagger? I thought that Greatsword was a much more powerful weapon, which would inflict far more damage than a puny Knife. This seems consistent across the weapons - as the base DC's increase, so does the STR minimum so, unless you bump up against the doubled damage optional cap, a bigger weapon doesn't do appreciably more damage than a smaller one.

 

Maybe, instead, the STR MIN should not impact damage at all. Perhaps it should only impact OCV, as the character tries to wield a weapon which is much too heavy. Maybe that Knife should have base damage of 1 DC, so a 10 STR would inflict 3 DC's and anyone of STR 4 or above can wield it easily, and a Greatsword should inflict 1d6+1, so a character with a 15 STR would inflict 2d6+1 damage, but would suffer an OCV penalty with so heavy a weapon. The Brute is now inflicting 3d6 HKA, instead of 2d6+1, and the Greatsword does 3DC more than a Dagger - regardless of who wields it.

 

Maybe the OCV penalty should be increased to compensate for the damage increase, so maybe it becomes -1 OCV per 2 or 3 STR short of the minimum. -2 for every 5 points short is pretty comparable to -2 for each range increment, and would make for a bit more meaningful gradation.

I do not provide DC penalties for inadequate Strength. Only OCV penalties. I do not want the big weapons short changed. They are limited enough by their high Str minimums.

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I use the cap in all of my heroic level games.  It's just always made sense to me: these aren't superheroes.  Of course the issue has never come up either.  I also enforce Characteristic Maxima and make no bones about using the cap and Min. STR, so they'd have to have enough STR over the Min. to double, much less over double, the DC of the weapon anyway.  Add that I've never had a magic using character played in my games that used buff spells, and have only had one magical weapon that boosted STR (it was specifically designed to allow anyone that could wield it to reach its double DC limit), and again, getting to those levels of STR has just never been an issue.

 

So then there's skill.  Even here I've had no issue.  I've had very few fantasy players buy MA with their weapon, and when they do, they typically are after the CV bonuses, not the DC.  Someone that can hit repeatedly, or defend from such, will in the end do better than someone that hits for high damage, but only once in awhile.  The caveat to that being that supposedly they can't do enough to alpha the target.  In a MA campaign, most of the time my players have always chosen to go bare-handed, using weapons only if the situation called for it (pole arms and thrown weapons being the usual exceptions).  Maybe I just play with too many Bruce Li fans.  :D

 

Now Christopher Taylor brought up a good point in an early post, and I'm going to have to think on Deadly Blow and its like.  That gets into being able to lay in a precise hit to a vital organ.  Something that generally can't be done in active combat where people are moving around (hopefully) erratically and generally not cooperating with sliding a stiletto through the ribs and into the heart, sure you can target "head," "chest," etc. in a combat, but that doesn't mean you're going to hit them in the eye or heart, which is what I've always imagined Deadly Blow as doing, so chances are I'd allow that to exceed the weapon DC maximum rule, but probably only in very particular and specific circumstances.

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So if limit my skill levels under Deadly Blow, I get the advantage of superseding the normal DC max. I've never liked the idea that limitations create advantages.

 

If Deadly Blow means hitting a vital location, why would it also get a Hit Location roll? It seems like that special effect is better simulated by skill levels offsetting hit location penalties.

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As for portability to different genres, normally I agree 100% and that's one of the things that drew me to Hero in the first place. If it were up to me I'd change it across the board. It's easy enough to ignore in other genres, so I find it's not worth monkeying with; but in heroic modern games it just gets so glaring that it becomes impossible for me to ignore. Especially once I started teaching Hero to new players at conventions and got tired of hearing "Wait, you're telling me I'm barely average Strength but I can lift 220 pounds without Pushing? Seriously?" And again, the alternative is to hand out a lot of 8 STR PCs which is...problematic at best.

 

I want to respond to this bit, but I didn't cut the rest away to nitpick. Those were some solid ideas. The concept at work does seem to be setting the baseline PC Strength to being able to lift up a "Hero" person. (Who is also 2m tall... default people are a bit on the larger side...) Anyway, back to the bit quoted above. A few observations:

 

First, a definition of what the chart means. This is from 6e (which I don't do, but this has been the same since at least 4th ed.):

 

 

 

A character’s lifting capacity is indicated on the Strength Table. It represents the maximum amount of weight he can just manage to lift off the ground, stagger with for a step or two, then drop.

 

Second, a bit of a refinement of Lifting from The Ultimate Brick (5ed):

 

 

OPTIONAL LIFTING PARAMETERS

At the GM’s discretion, the following optional parameters for other forms of lifting apply:

■ Bench Press (lying down, lifting object to the full extent of one’s arms): 75% of the character’s full lifting capacity

■ Clean And Jerk (lifting a weight from the floor to one’s chest in one movement, then lifting it to a full arms’ extension over one’s head in a second movement and holding it there motionless until allowed to release it): 50% of the character’s full lifting capacity

■ Dead Lift (using the legs and back to lift a weight from floor to hip level): 90% of the character’s full lifting capacity

■ Leg Press (using a special type of fitness machine to lift with one’s legs): Double the character’s full lifting capacity (i.e., use +5 STR to determine his lifting capability).

■ Snatch (in a single movement, lifting a weight from the floor to a full arms’ extension over one’s head, then holding it there motionless until allowed to release it): 40% of the character’s full lifting capacity

 

 

Third, a 10 Characteristic is a baseline PC. A baseline PC is an Adventurer (who weighs 220 lbs and stands  6' 6.5" tall . . .), not a normal person. A normal person starts with a base 8 characteristics (and is still also 220/6'6.5"). A STR 8 can "Hero Lift" 75 kg.

 

I just happened to be thinking about Strength due to another thread. Here's how I put all this together in my tiny little brain:

 

First of all, a "Hero Lift" (Herolift hereafter) is not even a Deadlift, which is raising the weight to hip level. Now, in a Deadlift, you aren't staggering anywhere if you're lifting at full capacity. A Herolift lets you lift more weight than your Deadlft, but not as high, and you can stagger a few steps with it. This does not sound healthy! My chiropractor had a cow the last time I tried to Herolift something. (Side note: The Clean And Jerk is a Marvel Lift, since they give weights for heroic over head lifts and FASERIP so defines their lift. So add 5 pts to your Herolift when making Marvels.)

 

Second, it seems to me that the STR chart is actually in line with the idea of what an average person can lift . . . another average (real average not Hero Average) person! And an average PC can lift an average Hero Person. I think most people can manage to budge 75kg/165 lbs, even if they're slight of build. My wife couldn't, but she's got less than an average Strength.

 

So, this disconnect of an "average" person lifting 220lbs is an illusion. PCs are Heroic individuals. Let's say my accountant father in law is an average real human male. He's about 75kg, and I suspect can muscle that much weight around. Now, let's say the firemen in the firehouse on the corner of my street are everyday heroes. (They are!) They can all lift a 175 lb dummy over their shoulders*. That's 79ish kg. Well, a fireman's carry isn't on the STR chart or the optional STR chart. The Extended STR chart is incremented from 75kg at 8 STR to 88kg at 9 STR. So, let's call the fireman's dummy an 8 STR lift. Let's say you need +2.5 STR (I'm totally making this up now, but I think that number's fair as carrying a person on your shoulder is easier than overhead pressing them) for a fireman's carry. So, to fireman's carry an 8 STR object, that's 10.5 STR.

 

This seems about right to me. A STR of 10 is reasonable for an active, healthy adult. If someone wants to model a person with a slighter build, or who's more or less an average non-adventuring type, or whatever concept calls for lower lifting capacity, the system lets them do that without any tweaking. (Not that there's anything wrong with tweaking. I'd comment on the STR Min issue, as it's set too high for my tastes too, but I don't really have anything new to add to that discussion, which was a good read by the way.)

 

 

*Edit: Further research shows that apparently firefighters just have to drag said dummy around these days. Meh.

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Valid points, PG. I think we're bumping up against a couple underlying Hero assumptions that I sometimes have issues with:

 

1. The average ability score for the general population is really 8, not 10.

2. PCs are by definition above average in every way (except maybe one token dump stat).

 

My problems with the first:

a. The system doesn't really work well for characters with scores below 10. Ever tried running a HtH fight between two RAW-"Normal" characters? It's mathematically impossible for them to Stun each other*; and even if they hit every single Phase, it takes 5 Turns of average damage to get to a KO. Have fun with that.

b. If 8 is truly average, that means half the non-hero NPCs in your game should have scores below 8. The last time I saw that was never. Obviously I can't speak for all Herodom, but in 25+ years every Hero game I've played in treated characters with scores below 10 as weak or below average, and anythign below 8 is treated as downright feeble. So while we may say 8 is average, in practice we treat 10 as the average.

 

My problems with the second:

a. While most genres assume the PCs are above-average "adventurers," that's not always true in all genres, particularly horror or much modern fiction. I've run a number of "ordinary people placed in extraordinary circumstances" games, and the system simply doesn't work right if you build them around an average of 8s. If your "generic-any-genre" system can't handle normal people doing normal things, you have a problem.

b. Even in games where the PCs are assumed to be above-average, they're not always above-average in every way. So starting out all stats above-average biases against that, even if you allow one stat to be sold back. (Plus because of the above points, a PC that is supposed to be "below average" in one area usually sells that characteristic back to...8.)

c. Even taking the PCs Are Exceptional assumption as a given, NPCs and PCs are built using the same rules as PCs. So I must either make all my NPCs above average too (baseline 10), or else make them functionally ineffective (baseline 8).

 

Furthermore, if we go with the guideline that you can bench press 75% of your max lift, that means an 8 STR character can still bench 124 pounds! That's not unrealistic...for adult males in decent shape. But if we grabbed a random cross-section of people off the street and measured how much they could bench, I'm pretty sure it would average out to considerably less than 124 lbs. Heck, a 5 STR character is considered an elderly cripple in game terms, but they can still bench 83 pounds? So even if we ignore all my previous objections, the max lifts still don't make sense.

 

* Unless you're using Hit Location rules, and even then an average-damage head shot is just barely Stunning: 1.5d6 => 5.5 STUN, x2 for Head => 11 STUN, minus 2 PD => 9 STUN vs 8 CON. But with a 2 OCV, Called Shots are out of the question, so you're waiting for that 1-in-20 chance of rolling a 5 or less for Hit Loc. Again, have fun with that.

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How else are you gonna get that 110 pound girl on the firefighting squad to comply with federal regulations these days?

 

Given that there are no federal requirements for non-federal agencies....like a local fire department... to employ women... and in fact that there is no federal regulation anywhere requiring anyone to employ women.... turns out complying with non-discrimination in hiring regulations will be pretty easy.

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@bigdamnhero: I agree that adjusting the lifting values for a given campaign is a valid choice. If Hero's a true toolkit system, it should be able to handle that just fine, and I think it can. Concerns about characters being able to be ported from one campaign to another aren't going to be a  huge issue for most folks. Every GM has their own guidelines for building anyway, so players should expect to rewrite from one game to the next. So, why not tailor the game to the level of realism you want? I'm not sure if there are published sources with any kind of realism sliders, but it's certainly a valid way to simulate a wider variety of genres than just cinematic action.

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220lbs is about right for a healthy male in their prime, of average strength and build (6' 180lbs) to be capable of lifting. This is what a score of 10 represents, what a healthy (for physical characteristics) adult in their prime should reasonably possess.

 

I dont buy that the "average person" has characteristics of 8. A couch potato, sure, but not an average healthy adult who gets somewhat regular exercise. This obsession that players have with wanting characteristics to start above average is ridiculous. Of course your PC is not average because they are given experience points through which they can purchase above average characteristic score. Get over yourselves. Sheesh.

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As any health professional will be happy to point out, the "average person" does not get somewhat regular exercise.

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/10/this-is-the-average-mans-body/280194/

 

- E

Depends on the setting.

 

In any low tech setting, the average person is toiling in the field or doing backbreaking manual labor all day long. They walk everywhere because horses are expensive.

 

In a modern or futuristic campaign, the average person might nof get regular exercise, but thats mostly because of how ubiquitous powered vehicles become which removes the need of the common man to walk everywhere they go.

 

I would posit that the reason why obesity is so rampant in modern society is because people simply dont walk anymore. If they did, most people would maintain a relatively normal body weight. But remove the need to walk and jobs being desk based, the average person becomes sedentary unless vanity or health consciousness spurs them to exercise (which many average people do...they are still average in their stats, but thr exercise allows them to hit the 10-12 range where they are supposed to be rather than the 8-9 range of the sedentary populace)

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Well, in most low tech settings, people will likely suffer from malnutrition and insufficient caloric intake to justify a rugged physique- since the advent of mass access to food comes with the advent of more advanced tech.

 

I suspect a larger contributor to obesity (although you're right about the impact of motorized transportation) is simply how accessible food is AND how we've mostly managed to ruin it by turning into supercaloric junk. It would be great food for people burning 4k+ calories a day... but it's completely inappropriate for modern society except that it's FAST. 

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Well, in most low tech settings, people will likely suffer from malnutrition and insufficient caloric intake to justify a rugged physique- since the advent of mass access to food comes with the advent of more advanced tech.

 

I suspect a larger contributor to obesity (although you're right about the impact of motorized transportation) is simply how accessible food is AND how we've mostly managed to ruin it by turning into supercaloric junk. It would be great food for people burning 4k+ calories a day... but it's completely inappropriate for modern society except that it's FAST.

That is indeed the other factor in the equation. The tyoe of food consumed coupled with a lack of exercise. I myself has gained 50lbs in the last 5 years because of a distinct lack of exercise. Where before, I didnt have a car and thus I walked everywhere. I ate a bachelors diet (burgers and pizza) for years yet put on no extra weight because of the regular exercise. Be aware I did not work out or go running. I simply walked everywhere and worked jobs where I was on my feet most of the day. Now I work a job that while at times has a flurry of extreme physical activity, it is not consistent and I spend 90% of my work day sitting in a vehicle. I am now forced to actively seek exercise, where before, just my normal daily activity allowed me to maintain my fighting shape. (And man was I a sexy beast!)

 

Also, I extremely dislike ranking people at 8. I much prefer a range of stats within which an "average" person may fall. That is between 8 and 12. With 10 being the middle ground. So if you meet three different average people on the street, they are likely to have three different Strength scores and three different Int scores and three different Con scores, though they would all be considered "average" despite these differences.

 

Thats why I always refer to 10 as the normal average because if falls right in the middle of the average range of 8-12.

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Well, there's a difference between "average person" and "average hero" in my book. I am fine with 10's across the board for a hero, even if its a bit much for Joe Average.

But thats why the Hero is given CP. Because he or she is going to spend them and rise above the average. I dont understand why people want 10 to be Heroic when no player building a heroic character is going to leave their characteristics at 10.

 

Plus 10 is a nice round number in the system and the baseline from which everything flows. It works for the average person.

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But thats why the Hero is given CP. Because he or she is going to spend them and rise above the average. I dont understand why people want 10 to be Heroic when no player building a heroic character is going to leave their characteristics at 10.

 

Plus 10 is a nice round number in the system and the baseline from which everything flows. It works for the average person.

I guess our real difference is in experience then. I have seen quite a few builds of heroic characters with 10 for characteristics. And I am not talking about min/maxers, just players who had no reason to think that this character was that smart or that rugged or that nimble. Do they change with experience? Sometimes. Sometimes not. Some are more apt to buy skills (combat or otherwise), some concentrate on powers (or knacks, perks, etc). 

 

I am glad 10 works out as a baseline for you. I tend to assume the "average" person has 8's except in areas where they would need more for some reason. Farmers and laborers get 10 STR and probably 10 CON, a mayor or councilman might have 10 int or ego, etc. But that is the lovely thing about Hero. We can disagree and the system lets both of us model as we like.

 

- E

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But that's why the Hero is given CP. Because he or she is going to spend them and rise above the average.

Sure, they spend points to rise above the average... hero.  The stats are a base level, this is what heroes start at and buy up from to show their distinction from others.  Bob has 17 Dex, he's much faster than the average heroic type.  Consider straight 10's to be an athletic type with no specialization who has a quick mind and charisma.  That's your baseline for building up from.

 

As for 10 being a "round number" that's irrelevant, the reason 10 has a given meaning is the strength chart.  That's where the basis of the discussion comes from, if 10 strength meant "able to with great effort lift 100 tons over your head" then people would say average folks have, I dunno, a 1 strength.

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Indeed, the strength chart is what gives us our baseline. Most healthy adult males should be able to deadlift 200lbs. In my prime I could probably deadlift 300lbs and I didnt lift weights at all. At the age of 40, I was able to fireman carry the biggest guy in my class at the border patrol academy and he was 285lbs. I am 5'10 and was 200lbs at the time. I am a couch potato. I should be one of those guys with a strength of 8, yet here I am running around with closer to 12. I dont buy the average person is all 8 argument. It doesnt stand up to close examination.

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Sure, they spend points to rise above the average... hero.

 

This is what I dont understand.

 

Why cant 10 be the baseline for an average human being, with the normal range being 8-12! It works perfectly within the confines of the game mechanics. Changing the average to 8 means the new range is 6-10. That doesnt stand up.

 

Of course a normal person can have at least one extraordinary characteristic. You can have what is otherwise a normal high school kid who has an extraordinary level of dexterity and he becomes a master of Parkour. Or a post graduate student with a genius level IQ possess an INT of 18. These are still normal people. They have an extraordinary attribute, but in no way are these people defined as "heroes". What defines someone as a hero is not their characteristics, but their nobility of spirit and the ability to act in situations that would give non-heroes pause.

 

So yeah, its just my own opinion, but I feel that the perception that PCs should start out at a "heroic" average above the normals is idiotic. Its meaningless and mainly stems from wanting their character to be better than average even when they cant affors the points to raise all their characteristics above average.

 

Indiana Jones pretty much has an average strength. I wouldnt rate him any higher than a 10. Does that mean he's not a Hero? Of course not. Jones is a hero because be takes action. Nothing to do with his characteristics at all.

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Also, beyond the baseline of Strength, I consider INT to be a solid baseline as well. I equate INT to real world IQ. Multiply INT by 10 to get IQ. This matches up with a 10 being equivalent to an IQ of 100 and an 18 being equivalent to an IQ of 180 which is Hawking and Einstein territory.

 

Putting the average human at 8 gives them an IQ of 80, which puts the vast majority of the population just above mental retardation. Keep in mind that the Tom Hanks character Forrest Gump had an IQ of 75. That would make most people only 5 IQ points above Gump.

 

No. Just....no.

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Also, beyond the baseline of Strength, I consider INT to be a solid baseline as well. I equate INT to real world IQ. Multiply INT by 10 to get IQ. This matches up with a 10 being equivalent to an IQ of 100 and an 18 being equivalent to an IQ of 180 which is Hawking and Einstein territory.

 

Putting the average human at 8 gives them an IQ of 80, which puts the vast majority of the population just above mental retardation. Keep in mind that the Tom Hanks character Forrest Gump had an IQ of 75. That would make most people only 5 IQ points above Gump.

 

No. Just....no.

 

This tells me more that your baseline is flawed (I mean, moreso than that IQ is a pretty terrible metric to use) than that having 8 be average human level for characteristics is flawed.

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This tells me more that your baseline is flawed (I mean, moreso than that IQ is a pretty terrible metric to use) than that having 8 be average human level for characteristics is flawed.

Hey, its worked for me for 20 years. I see no need to change it.

 

And among the psychiatric profession, IQ is considered to be a pretty solid and reliable metric. It doesnt tell the whole story of course, but it is a fairly tangible measure of basic cognative function. It can he desputed of course, as most theories can, but it is generally accepted by the industry at large.

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I believe the "normal people have 8s" thing is a system assumption or at least a published notion. My question is, when did it creep in? I don't remember it stated in any 4th edition stuff I had, though it could have been. (I think there was a normals book, Normals Unbound or something? that I didn't have).

 

So, for the Hero Historians in the audience: When did the 8s is an average person creep in? And is it still assumed in current publications?

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