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Grabbing: Most slanted towards attacker move in the game?


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Oh grab. How I love and despise you.

 

As the subject said is there any other move in the game as slanted towards the aggressor as grab, or have I been misinterpreting it?

 

Two str 60 bricks (Gilgamesh and Enkidu!) lock horns.  Enkidu goes first and makes his grab check.  He hits and immediately rolls his full strength (12d6) vs Gilgamesh's half strength (6d6).  Surprising nobody he wins despite a bad roll (10 vs 7).

 

He then gets a free action to crush for 12d6.

 

Gilgamesh is up.  He roars and throws his grabber off him, despite the full strength vs strength contest (12 vs 11).  Since he didn't double his attacker (and can't) this takes his full phase.

 

Next phase Enkidu attacks again and suceeds (13 vs 4). Crush for another 12d6.

 

At this point Gilgamesh starts headbutting him instead, thankful he spent 5 points on a naked adder that lets him use his strength from Alternate Origin Points ... because he's never staying free.

 

This scenario comes up all the time in my games.  A suspicious number of both heroes and villains have a few meters of teleport for some mysterious and totally unrelated reason...

 

What has been anyone else's experience with grab? Does it change how you design things (for good or bad)? Do you have house rules about it (I had grab vs full str for a while but it was rendering the poor telekinetic completely useless against anything even slightly stronger than human maximum)?

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I have had thoughts about letting the grabbed use full strength, but my personal thought was that grabs (especially Telekinetic Grabs) are not highly used in my games, and the players who do use them are not abusing them like in this situation. 

 

My Bricks (60 STR) usually rely on punches (12d6) and kicks (12d6 or 13d6 with a Dex Roll) to knockout their opponents. 

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Well in real life combat, grappling is very, very useful.  Almost all real fights (as in, not in a controlled environment with extremely rigid rules and prohibited maneuvers) that aren't a one-punch affair end up on the ground, wrestling.  So it being effective is not exactly unrealistic or unreasonable.

 

Remember all the other stuff that goes on during grab maneuvers though.  You can only grab a certain number of limbs, you cannot prevent the other limbs from being used to attack you, you're 1/2 DCV not just to the grabbee but others, you're at an OCV penalty to attempt a grab, etc.

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A few ideas:

 

For a 15 DEX, 60 STR brick (average to below average) they could usually use their full strength in this situation for 13 points in Contortionist. 

Same situation, 16 points in Martial escape and +3 DC's.

For 10 points you can buy +5 OCV only with blocks and block most grabs. Plus you get to act first on your next phase with them if you are the same speed.

Growth, Shrinking, Stretching and Teleport also allow you to escape grabs trivially.

 

And my personal favorite would be something unique to the brick, like buying my strength with a naked adder for no range, penetrating explosion with double knockback or the like. You can even get fancy and limit it to only people grabbing you and get the comic effect of a pile of agents flying away from the brick.

 

I don't see it as a huge problem.

 

- E

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Well in real life combat, grappling is very, very useful.  Almost all real fights (as in, not in a controlled environment with extremely rigid rules and prohibited maneuvers) that aren't a one-punch affair end up on the ground, wrestling.  So it being effective is not exactly unrealistic or unreasonable.

Well, I can see this, but really a lot of fights I have seen involve takedowns, goring (A flying tackle essentially.), punching on the ground, and spearing (A velocity added throw plus full move.). Grappling more works in a upright position on the ground, but usually the fight is over by then. 

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This is what I do.  If you break free by enough, it took you no time at all.  In fact, I thought that was the rule.

That's a house rule, not RAW.

 

Per RAW, it takes no time if one breaks free using one's casual strength (which is half one's usual strength ... or less, if desired).  Champions Complete covers this on page 12 in the section on Casual Use Of Abilities. 5ER covers it on page 423 in the section on Casual Strength.

 

 

What has been anyone else's experience with grab? Does it change how you design things (for good or bad)? Do you have house rules about it (I had grab vs full str for a while but it was rendering the poor telekinetic completely useless against anything even slightly stronger than human maximum)?

Pay special attention to how many limbs the grabber is using versus the grabbee, as use of less than two manipulable limbs to perform the grab (i.e. a one-handed grab) halves the grabber's STR bonus with most martial maneuvers -and- reduces the grabber's holding STR by -5.  Also pay close attention to the 1/2 DCV state of both the grabber and the grabbee relative to others who are present for the duration of the grab.  Because this 1/2 DCV state persists throughout the grab (i.e. during the grab for as long as hold is maintained), it tends to be ample motivation not to perform grabs/holds for too long in team fights -- since teammates tend to come running to the aid of the grabbee ... and the grabber is easy pickings at 1/2 DCV.

 

In a 1:1 fight, the odds are (and should be) stacked against the grabbee ... but most fights aren't 1:1.  The 1/2 DCV state of the grabber is the GM's lever for disincenting long grab/hold activities.  You should pull that lever.  (Note: Competent players will pull that same lever on the grabbee, especially where TK or other special effects allow shots at the grabbee without risk to the grabber.)

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Pay special attention to how many limbs the grabber is using versus the grabbee, as use of less than two manipulable limbs to perform the grab (i.e. a one-handed grab) halves the grabber's STR bonus with most martial maneuvers -and- reduces the grabber's holding STR by -5.  Also pay close attention to the 1/2 DCV state of both the grabber and the grabbee relative to others who are present for the duration of the grab.  Because this 1/2 DCV state persists throughout the grab (i.e. during the grab for as long as hold is maintained), it tends to be ample motivation not to perform grabs/holds for too long in team fights -- since teammates tend to come running to the aid of the grabbee ... and the grabber is easy pickings at 1/2 DCV.

 

That's what tends to happen in my games.  If the opposing brick grabs someone, he's 1) announced himself as a major threat and 2) made himself a great big target.  As a result, the rest of the team tends to unload on said brick and will blow skill levels for extra damage rather than OCV if available (also, autofire attacks can be especially nasty here).  The occasional grab and hold still gets performed, but its something that has to be set up to not leave the grabber overly vulnerable to the counter-attack.

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Well in real life combat, grappling is very, very useful. Almost all real fights (as in, not in a controlled environment with extremely rigid rules and prohibited maneuvers) that aren't a one-punch affair end up on the ground, wrestling. So it being effective is not exactly unrealistic or unreasonable.

 

No Christooher Taylor most fights do not end up on the ground in a wrestling type situation. That was hype from Gracies to make their system seem superior.

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No Christopher Taylor most fights do not end up on the ground in a wrestling type situation.

 

Well, let me clarify: almost all actual real world fights I've seen end up on the ground wrasslin more than punching standing up like a boxing match.  Unless one person totally overwhelms the other with a few quick hits that lay them out... people end up on the ground.

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Hrm. I can't say I have seen many (half a dozen maybe) but they tend to end up one of two ways, either one person knocks the other down and then goes to the ground after them or the space is restrictive and one ends up with the other at a wall punching them. 

 

- E

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One brick trick I like is buying extra STR with "only to increase casual STR" so that their casual STR matches their full STR. Pretty rude surprise for grappling bricks, and useful for just barging through barriers and whatnot.

 

I like it, but since it's STR I think it has pretty broad usage scenarios.  Thus, I would expect it to be worth something ... but it's not much of a limitation.  Out of curiosity what were you assigning it and why?  (-1/4?)

 

My curiosity stems from a desire to pull this one into my own repertoire, where appropriate!

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The last place you want to be in a street fight is on the ground. Even if you're the one on top, you don't know what the other mook's friends are going to be doing, and "kicking the crap out of you while you ineffectively grope the other mook" is an option you do not wish to present to them.

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Well, let me clarify: almost all actual real world fights I've seen end up on the ground wrasslin more than punching standing up like a boxing match. Unless one person totally overwhelms the other with a few quick hits that lay them out... people end up on the ground.

No they don't. If one does get overwhelmed and is on the ground, the attacker does a ground and pound or if several usually a curb stomp.

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One problem to is the definition of a "real" or "street" fight? Is not a High bathroom brawl a "real" fight?

 

I would say that if you ever could get any sort of numbers, you would see wrestling type moves more in a High School setting where it is usually more about dominance than lif or death fight.

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I'd go with -1/2 most likely. It still has multiple uses in combat (entangles, grabs, breaking through barriers, etc) and can be used in the same phase when you use your full strength for another combat action. And as I noted above there are other ways to accomplish the original goal of just escaping the grab.

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I'd go with -1/2 most likely. It still has multiple uses in combat (entangles, grabs, breaking through barriers, etc) and can be used in the same phase when you use your full strength for another combat action. And as I noted above there are other ways to accomplish the original goal of just escaping the grab.

I think there's a "lower the limitation" bias in the rules, and I see it here. How often is STR useful? What proportion of those benefits are afforded by casual STR only? I think the STR is losing more than half its effectiveness.

 

40 points to have a 60 STR Brick able to exert that STR to break a barrier, an Entangle or a Grab? What else could he have done with 40 points? I certainly don't think a Brick with 60 STR and 60 Casual STR is remotely comparable to a Brick with 100 STR, 50 Casual STR, or one who has +2 SPD, +4 OCV and +4 DCV.

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Casual STR only is worth at least a -1; it has extremely limited uses and usefulness compared to where STR is otherwise applied.

 

"For Casual STR Only" has no Lift capability, no Damage capability, and can only be used to overcome a small set of the overall situations in the system.

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