Grabbing: Most slanted towards attacker move in the game?

[eepjr24]

Casual STR only is worth at least a -1; it has extremely limited uses and usefulness compared to where STR is otherwise applied.

 

"For Casual STR Only" has no Lift capability, no Damage capability, and can only be used to overcome a small set of the overall situations in the system.

Not sure where you get that last bit? Nothing I see in 6e removes the capability for Casual Strength to be used for lifting or damaging. It actually gives a specific example of using it to damage:

 

 

Example: Ironclad has 60 STR. He’s chasing Fenris, who runs through a door and slams it  shut behind him. Not wanting to slow down to open the door, Ironclad uses his Casual STR — 30 STR — to smash through it. He rolls 7 BODY on his 6d6, easily enough to smash  through the 3 PD, 3 BODY door. This costs him 3 END but takes no time. Since he didn’t have to slow down he catches up to Fenris in that same Phase and punches him with his full 60 STR. He can use his STR again  this way, but he has to pay 6 END for doing so.

 

And given that it allows uses of STR that are not normally allowed (zero phase or no action)....

 

 

At the GM’s option, a character can make Casual Use of a Power or ability that he uses as an attack (defenses, movement, and other Powers can’t be used Casually). This means the character uses the Power without conscious effort as a Zero Phase Action (or in some cases even as an Action that takes no time).

 

YMMV, but I see STR as quite useful and when I am playing a brick make extensive use of casual strength because of that. I would certainly be happy if I could buy more casual strength for half cost (assuming I applied no other limitations to it).

[Hugh Neilson]

Not sure where you get that last bit? Nothing I see in 6e removes the capability for Casual Strength to be used for lifting or damaging. It actually gives a specific example of using it to damage:

+10 STR adds to damage against combat-viable opponents. You won't be using casual STR in that context. Having 60 STR and full 60 casual STR will not help you lift an object requiring a 70 STR to lift either.

 

And given that it allows uses of STR that are not normally allowed (zero phase or no action)....

normal STR gets that ability already. We're purchasing only that benefit of STR, and surrendering everything else. The limitation is "only increases casual usage", which could be applied to any ability which has casual use available.

 

 

YMMV, but I see STR as quite useful and when I am playing a brick make extensive use of casual strength because of that. I would certainly be happy if I could buy more casual strength for half cost (assuming I applied no other limitations to it).

For half cost, or at a -1/2 limitation? The former is a -1 limitation. And I will still pit a 90 STR Brick with 45 Casual STR against your 60 STR Brick with 60 Casual STR confident of the outcome.

[eepjr24]

 

I think there's a "lower the limitation" bias in the rules, and I see it here. How often is STR useful? What proportion of those benefits are afforded by casual STR only? I think the STR is losing more than half its effectiveness.

40 points to have a 60 STR Brick able to exert that STR to break a barrier, an Entangle or a Grab? What else could he have done with 40 points? I certainly don't think a Brick with 60 STR and 60 Casual STR is remotely comparable to a Brick with 100 STR, 50 Casual STR, or one who has +2 SPD, +4 OCV and +4 DCV.

 

Depends on setting, I am sure, but as a brick with STR as my primary power.... I pretty much use it for everything.

 

Not sure what the 40 points is? If I have 60 STR and want 60 casual it would cost me (30/1.5) = 20 RP at -1/2 assuming I applied no other limitation. As noted above, it can be used in addition to my regular action once per phase, often as a zero phase or no action at all. I can use it for lifting, smashing through things, PRE attacks, breaking entangles, grabs, etc. 

 

Maybe I am just finding more uses for it than other folks? Help me out here, does it really seem like losing half the capability of the STR? Maybe I'd compromise and go -3/4. Or -1 if it could not be used for lifting or PRE attacks or...

 

- E

[eepjr24]

+10 STR adds to damage against combat-viable opponents. You won't be using casual STR in that context. Having 60 STR and full 60 casual STR will not help you lift an object requiring a 70 STR to lift either.

 

 

normal STR gets that ability already. We're purchasing only that benefit of STR, and surrendering everything else. The limitation is "only increases casual usage", which could be applied to any ability which has casual use available.

 

 

 

For half cost, or at a -1/2 limitation? The former is a -1 limitation. And I will still pit a 90 STR Brick with 45 Casual STR against your 60 STR Brick with 60 Casual STR confident of the outcome.

Yes, I already granted that it cannot be used to damage opponents, that is why it is a limitation at all.

 

Normal STR gets the ability to exert as a 0 phase action at full value? Can you point me to the rule book on that?

 

I was using your value when I said half cost. So, -1 (half) versus what I would normally pay at -1/2 (about two thirds). Your numbers are off. Your brick would have 80 STR, 40 casual if using my limitation value. If using yours it would be 75 STR, 38 casual.

 

And "my bricks epeen is bigger than your bricks epeen" arguments are kinda pointless. I am just trying to figure out a fair assessment of a limitation not speculate about imaginary battles. =P All of this in a vacuum of not knowing DC limits for a campaign, not knowing defense values or other powers makes it pretty moot anyway.

 

- E

[Hugh Neilson]

Not sure what the 40 points is? If I have 60 STR and want 60 casual it would cost me (30/1.5) = 20 RP at -1/2 assuming I applied no other limitation. As noted above, it can be used in addition to my regular action once per phase, often as a zero phase or no action at all. I can use it for lifting, smashing through things, PRE attacks, breaking entangles, grabs, etc.

THERE's the disconnect!

 

40 points is the cost of +60 STR with a -1/2 limitation. Casual STR is 1/2 of normal STR, so a 60 STR Brick needs to buy another 60 STR, only for Casual STR, to have a Casual STR of 60.

 

To get a cost of 20, you would have to apply a -2 limitation (60/3) which implies the STR loses most of its base utility. I could agree with a cost of 20. 

 

Normal STR gets the ability to exert as a 0 phase action at full value? Can you point me to the rule book on that?

Normal STR gets the ability to exert at half value as a 0 phase action as casual STR. STR only usable for casual STR increases the base STR for purposes of that halved casual STR only.

 

And "my bricks epeen is bigger than your bricks epeen" arguments are kinda pointless. I am just trying to figure out a fair assessment of a limitation not speculate about imaginary battles. =P All of this in a vacuum of not knowing DC limits for a campaign, not knowing defense values or other powers makes it pretty moot anyway.

To me, assuming two otherwise identical characters use the same number of points to buy two different abilities is a pretty effective means of evaluating the relative merits of those two separate abilities. Even a 20 points, I would not think our 60 STR Brick with 60 Casual STR would be as effective as an 80 STR Brick, a Brick with a SPD 2 greater or a Brick with +2 OCV and +2 DCV, or 4 levels in HTH combat (the same 20 point investment), but we're getting closer in that casual STR does have some benefits outside straight up one on one combat. I think that "casual STR = full STR" will be something of a vanity purchase, rather than core to the construct.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Right, you can't make up the gap in your 60 STR by just buying 30 more; that would be halved when used casually.

 

But I agree that its worth at least -1/2 if not more.  You aren't actually gaining a lot except speed and more strength when its not your phase.  You can't really use casual strength damage, because the only time its going to come up is not on your phase - why use casual strength to do damage with if its  the same as your normal damage, and costs the same END?  You can technically use it to lift, but its again no better than using your normal strength.

 

Basically all its useful for is to shrug things aside without taking time and break free of being grabbed or entangled, and that's a pretty limited set of circumstances.

 

No they don't. If one does get overwhelmed and is on the ground, the attacker does a ground and pound or if several usually a curb stomp.

 

You do realize you just argued that my experience and observation is a lie, right?  Without being there to have any idea yourself?

[Surrealone]

 

Depends on setting, I am sure, but as a brick with STR as my primary power.... I pretty much use it for everything.

 

<SNIP>

 

Maybe I am just finding more uses for it than other folks? Help me out here, does it really seem like losing half the capability of the STR?

I'm with you on this.  Half cost seems ENTIRELY too cheap for a 'casual use only' limitation placed on a characteristic as useful as STR.  The key item here is 0-phase use of casual STR to push past/smash through obstacles, break free from entangles, etc.

Per RAW casual STR use allows a character to pay END once for STR use (regardless of how many things are done with it in a phase) and all in the same phase 1) casually bust through a wall as a zero phase action, 2) PRE attack immediately after coming through the wall -- gaining the advantage of an extremely violent actions, and THEN 3) punch someone who just hesitated as a result of the combination shown herein.  END was only paid once (per RAW), despite two distinct STR uses.

 

I think some GM's here might want to re-evaluate the value of the limitation given the above.  ​I see it as -1/4 to -1/2 (tops)... specifically because of the zero phase capability I just noted ... and because casual STR use, per RAW, allows all non-attack uses of that strength level (e.g. lifting, carrying, pushing things aside, etc.).

[Christopher R Taylor]

Per RAW casual STR use allows a character to pay END once for STR use (regardless of how many things are done with it in a phase) and all in the same phase 1) casually bust through a wall as a zero phase action, 2) PRE attack immediately after coming through the wall -- gaining the advantage of an extremely violent actions, and THEN 3) punch someone who just hesitated as a result of the combination shown herein.

 

Yes, that's true (other than the only paying END once, which I'm not sure about and wouldn't work in my game anyway).  A character can do all that right now, as per the rules.

 

The only difference with this build would be that they can exert casual strength with a larger strength value - equal to their normal strength - when they break through the wall.  That's all that has changed in your scenario. And to do so, they are paying 30 points for the privilege, with a -1 limitation.  So instead of buying +15 PD and ED or +60 Stun or a 6d6 HTA, or anything else you could do with those points, you can break through a tougher wall.  I'm not seeing the imbalance here.

[eepjr24]

THERE's the disconnect!

 

40 points is the cost of +60 STR with a -1/2 limitation. Casual STR is 1/2 of normal STR, so a 60 STR Brick needs to buy another 60 STR, only for Casual STR, to have a Casual STR of 60.

 

To get a cost of 20, you would have to apply a -2 limitation (60/3) which implies the STR loses most of its base utility. I could agree with a cost of 20. 

 

 

Normal STR gets the ability to exert at half value as a 0 phase action as casual STR. STR only usable for casual STR increases the base STR for purposes of that halved casual STR only.

 

 

To me, assuming two otherwise identical characters use the same number of points to buy two different abilities is a pretty effective means of evaluating the relative merits of those two separate abilities. Even a 20 points, I would not think our 60 STR Brick with 60 Casual STR would be as effective as an 80 STR Brick, a Brick with a SPD 2 greater or a Brick with +2 OCV and +2 DCV, or 4 levels in HTH combat (the same 20 point investment), but we're getting closer in that casual STR does have some benefits outside straight up one on one combat. I think that "casual STR = full STR" will be something of a vanity purchase, rather than core to the construct.

Okay, got it on the math, glad that was just me not accounting for the doubling.

 

With the total points in mind, I could see perhaps going to -3/4, but I would be more likely to point them to another ability that does what they want (contortion, or others depending on effect) or just make the limit more restrictive and value at -1 for "Only for breaking free of grabs and entangles". But in the end as a player I would be more likely to just spend 10 points on +5 OCV for blocks. =P

 

- E

[Surrealone]

Yes, that's true (other than the only paying END once, which I'm not sure about and wouldn't work in my game anyway).

Page 423 of 5ER states: "Casual STR costs END to use, but a character only has to pay END for his STR once per Phase, no matter how many different things he does with it in that Phase."

 

This make sense for cinematic effect; the Hulk should not have to waste 2x points on added END just to be able to casually smash something prior to his PRE attack (against which he also doesn't have to make an attack roll) ... which then leads up to his punch in the same phase.  He spends END once for all uses of STR in that phase... and only makes one attack roll for the punch ... at least per 5ER.

 

Champions (In)Complete seems not to have reiterated this in its section on casual use of abilities, but I wouldn't think it'd have changed.  Perhaps someone can check 6e for a similar mention?

[eepjr24]

6e does change it slightly.

 

Using a Power Casually costs END, but the character only pays for the amount of the Power he’s using (i.e., he pays half the END he’d pay for using it at full strength).  \Unless the GM permits otherwise, a character can only use a Power Casually once per Segment, and can only make Casual Use of a single Power in a Segment. After using a Power Casually in a Segment, the character can then use that same Power again in that same Segment for its usual purposes (even the same purpose he used it Casually for). However, he must pay the standard END cost for using the Power again.

[Surrealone]

Interesting.  Looks like someone felt it was too potent as written in 5ER.  I appreciate the 6E clarity/info!

 

Also worthy of note is that Champions Complete is, yet again, incomplete regarding something.  I'm getting fed up with that -- since some here (Tasha, I'm looking at you) tout Champions Complete as being a sufficient and complete set of rules for 6e play ... thereby making it acceptable that the real 6e is out of print.  Clearly CC is not...

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

I think some GM's here might want to re-evaluate the value of the limitation given the above.  ​I see it as -1/4 to -1/2 (tops)... specifically because of the zero phase capability I just noted ... and because casual STR use, per RAW, allows all non-attack uses of that strength level (e.g. lifting, carrying, pushing things aside, etc.).

 

The only difference with this build would be that they can exert casual strength with a larger strength value - equal to their normal strength - when they break through the wall.  That's all that has changed in your scenario. And to do so, they are paying 30 points for the privilege, with a -1 limitation.  So instead of buying +15 PD and ED or +60 Stun or a 6d6 HTA, or anything else you could do with those points, you can break through a tougher wall.  I'm not seeing the imbalance here.

I'm gonna have to go with Surrealone on this one. The purpose of a brick character is to be able to punch, throw stuff, and beat a guy to death, yes, but the use of the strength as a 0-Phase Action is too much. Imagine that you could easily break out of pretty much any entangle or use your strength to resist knockback  as a large amount of 0-Phase Actions. This proves for unbalance. Additionally, I can see a situation where someone buys their Casual STR ABOVE their normal strength, thus proving for a large amount of chaos. And they save points too. 

 

Using a power casually, yes, can only be done once per phase. However, using STR is a different story as casual STR is usable several times as it is regard as a Characteristic, not a power. 

[eepjr24]

I'm gonna have to go with Surrealone on this one. The purpose of a brick character is to be able to punch, throw stuff, and beat a guy to death, yes, but the use of the strength as a 0-Phase Action is too much. Imagine that you could easily break out of pretty much any entangle or use your strength to resist knockback  as a large amount of 0-Phase Actions. This proves for unbalance. Additionally, I can see a situation where someone buys their Casual STR ABOVE their normal strength, thus proving for a large amount of chaos. And they save points too. 

 

Using a power casually, yes, can only be done once per phase. However, using STR is a different story as casual STR is usable several times as it is regard as a Characteristic, not a power. 

6e does not make that last distinction. From "Casual use of Powers" 6e1. 131:

 

For example, a character with STR 40 has a “Casual STR” of 20; a character with a Blast 12d6 has a “Casual Blast” of 6d6.

It uses STR interchangeably with other powers. Also, 6e1, 178 states that limited or advantaged characteristics as well as those in power frameworks are powers.

 

- E

[DasBroot]

I like the idea of a vanity purchase to buy up casual strength - that's pretty clever.  It would be an odd sort of game where that would come up, though, in my experience.  You'd have to be playing in a game where there was a DC cap but a generous active point cap to make it useful - if you were playing a game without either you'd obviously be better off with a 100 strength brick than one with 60 str/60 casual for the same AP investment.  It would take a DC 12, 80 AP cap game to get that 60/60.  If you played a 12 DC/60 AP you'd be able to get a 60/40 - better than 60/30 but probably not enough to bother with.

 

A few people have considered it 'abusive' to slap that grapple every round but I'm not sure I go that far with my dismay: it's just maddening for game encounter design. Hell, I did it myself with the test scenario in Champions Complete: My brick tackled Arrowhead with a grab by leap with his first action.  It was all over for Arrowhead at that point - half the encounter effectively removed in phase 12.  Green Dragon tried a few kicks and did some stun against my half-dcv self but big deal - I could take it (brick and all) and attacks against me opened himself up to unchallenged strikes from my partner.

 

It's a valid tactic but it's a boring one. Hence a plethora of 'serious fight' enemies who can teleport, have damage shields, and limited desolidification at certain times in my game - and that's not entirely fair to the  grappler.

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

It uses STR interchangeably with other powers. Also, 6e1, 178 states that limited or advantaged characteristics as well as those in power frameworks are powers.

Then regard me as incorrect. I didn't see that one. Sometimes I just need a reminder. I still am going with Surrealone though. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Hell, I did it myself with the test scenario in Champions Complete: My brick tackled Arrowhead with a grab by leap with his first action.  It was all over for Arrowhead at that point - half the encounter effectively removed in phase 12.  Green Dragon tried a few kicks and did some stun against my half-dcv self but big deal - I could take it (brick and all) and attacks against me opened himself up to unchallenged strikes from my partner.

 

So your complaint sounds more that bricks can both take and deal out a lot of damage, rather than grabs.  And that's a separate balance issue (one GMs need to keep in mind) to me.  Because if your brick wasn't so tough, the grab wouldn't be as much of a problem in this scenario.

[massey]

"Only for casual strength" should be at least a -1.  It's incredibly limited.  When you're calculating the value of a custom limitation, you need to look at other power constructs and see what they could have bought for the same cost.  So let's look at it.

 

I'm Bob the Brick.  I have 10 Str.  I'm going to buy +50 Str to get me to 60.  Then I want to be able to use it casually, so I'm going to buy a limited version of my Str all the way up to 120, so that my casual Str will still be 60.  50 points, + ? points.  What limitation is appropriate here?

 

If I go with -1/4, then I've spent an extra 48 points to get a casual Str of 60.  I could have a Str of 108 (casual Str 54), if I just bought it flat out.

If I go with -1/2, then I've spent an extra 40 points to get a casual Str of 60.  I could have a Str of 100 (casual Str 50), if I just bought it flat out.

If I go with -3/4, then I've spent an extra 34 points to get a casual Str of 60.  I could have a Str of 94 (casual Str 47), if I just bought it flat out.

If I go with -1, then I've spent an extra 30 points to get a casual Str of 60.  I could have a Str of 90 (casual Str 45), if I just bought it flat out.

 

The question is, when you compare my 60 Str (casual 60) character to your 90 Str (casual 45) character, does my +15 casual Str make the character as effective as your +30 regular Str?  I don't believe it does.  I believe that your ability to hit for 18D6, and lift a metric buttload of weight, is better than my ability to occasionally shrug off a grapple.  If you grab me, and roll your 18D6 Str, I'm still only resisting with my 12D6.  My casual Str is ineffective, at that point.  My full Str will be ineffective too.  I can almost never break out of your grapple, even though we paid the same points.  And that's at a -1 limitation.

 

It's probably worth somewhere around a -2, really.  The only time it would be worth less would be in a campaign that had a very hard damage cap, but a lot of extra points for extra doo-dads on your character.

[Christopher]

Oh grab. How I love and despise you.

 

As the subject said is there any other move in the game as slanted towards the aggressor as grab, or have I been misinterpreting it?

 

Two str 60 bricks (Gilgamesh and Enkidu!) lock horns.  Enkidu goes first and makes his grab check.  He hits and immediately rolls his full strength (12d6) vs Gilgamesh's half strength (6d6).  Surprising nobody he wins despite a bad roll (10 vs 7).

 

He then gets a free action to crush for 12d6.

 

Gilgamesh is up.  He roars and throws his grabber off him, despite the full strength vs strength contest (12 vs 11).  Since he didn't double his attacker (and can't) this takes his full phase.

 

Next phase Enkidu attacks again and suceeds (13 vs 4). Crush for another 12d6.

 

At this point Gilgamesh starts headbutting him instead, thankful he spent 5 points on a naked adder that lets him use his strength from Alternate Origin Points ... because he's never staying free.

 

This scenario comes up all the time in my games.  A suspicious number of both heroes and villains have a few meters of teleport for some mysterious and totally unrelated reason...

 

What has been anyone else's experience with grab? Does it change how you design things (for good or bad)? Do you have house rules about it (I had grab vs full str for a while but it was rendering the poor telekinetic completely useless against anything even slightly stronger than human maximum)?

Disclaimer:

The Hero system is just not the right System to make a 1v1 duel without some extra rules. So the whole example of "two equal bricks" duking it out amongst themself is by nature faulty and not going to end well.

All your example really does it take out the allies of either side, wich can take massive advantage of the CV penalities both parties suffer. Grabs primary purpose is to either block a weak Character, or make a strong guy vulnerable to allies.

 

You do NOT need alterante Origin Point for Strenght to make a headbutt. At least afaik you can excert STR from any of your 5 limbs (2 arms, 2 legs, 1 head) plus any aditional limbs you buy with the power "Extra Limbs".

With other powers you have to define one limb it comes from. And it can only come from there. If you got blasts out of your hands, having both (all 4, 6, 8) hands grabbed or entangeled blocks the blast. It won't affect your eyelasers, however.

 

First of all by default Grab uses your 2 Manipulatory Limbs to block two of the enemy limbs (usually his arms). All you can do with those two limbs are the special Grab Attacks (Slam, Squezee, Throw). You can choose to grab less limbs with less of yours, but unless you got a Martial Maneuver explicitly restricted to 1 Limb there is a penalty (see below).

To get more limbs you have to use Multiple Attack or further attacks in the following phases. Wich of course means you have to first lower your grab to a onehanded one to even have an extra limb to grab with.

6E2 63+64:

A Grabbed Character can use his movement to increase his STR to break free, per the usual rules.

The character can always try to use his Casual STR to break free first, no mater how unlikely it is to work. Doing so does not cost extra Endurance asuming he uses his full STR later and no action.

Growth and Shrinking can both break a grab instantly/easier, in addition to thier normal effects

 

6E2 65:

Using only one Arm to Grab lowers strenght by -5 and halves Martial Maneuver bonuses.

 

6E2 66 (and other):

The character can not use Foci if both arms are grabbed. However, otherwise the Character can use every attack against the grabber - inlcuding a Handbeams that are not based on Foci.

The only limit is that he can not use restricted Limbs against other Characters outside the Grab.

 

6E2 124 has some interesting rules. That I admit not I even was aware off.

Among them you get +5 STR if you only try to free a single limb.

If you roll twice the enemy Body, breaking out of a Grab (or entangle) does not cost you any action.

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

"Only for casual strength" should be at least a -1.  It's incredibly limited. 

I definitely do not agree. When someone uses their casual strength, they are allowed to use it as a 0-phase action, which allows for you to use a full phase action in addition to say, breaking out of a grab or throwing something. This allows for you to make a running throw at full speed and throw with a casual throw and hit a target easily. Additionally, busting down a wall with a 0-phase action allows for you to make a PRE attack afterwards, run up to the target with a HMove, and then punch with full strength in one phase. This is a huge thing and this is easily exploitable. 

 

In addition, you're values for spending are incorrect. Buying At -1/2 only cost 20 points. -1 at 15. So, the other guy would have 75 STR (38 Casual) and you would have 60 STR (60 Casual). This is incredibly bad for the 75 STR Guy. 

[eepjr24]

Massey - You are making some assumptions about what STR is legal / normal for a campaign. In your run of the mill 12 DC attack campaign, all of the constructs you propose are out. You last point is the most salient one for me.

 

- E

[Christopher R Taylor]

6E2 124 has some interesting rules. That I admit not I even was aware off.

Among them you get +5 STR if you only try to free a single limb.

If you roll twice the enemy Body, breaking out of a Grab (or entangle) does not cost you any action.

 

You're right, I thought that was the rule, not just a house rule:

"If a Grabbed character’s attempt to break out of a Grab does twice as much BODY on his STR Roll as the BODY rolled for the Grabber’s STR Roll, the Grabbed character frees himself and has a Full Phase in which to act."

 

[massey]

I definitely do not agree. When someone uses their casual strength, they are allowed to use it as a 0-phase action, which allows for you to use a full phase action in addition to say, breaking out of a grab or throwing something. This allows for you to make a running throw at full speed and throw with a casual throw and hit a target easily. Additionally, busting down a wall with a 0-phase action allows for you to make a PRE attack afterwards, run up to the target with a HMove, and then punch with full strength in one phase. This is a huge thing and this is easily exploitable. 

 

In addition, you're values for spending are incorrect. Buying At -1/2 only cost 20 points. -1 at 15. So, the other guy would have 75 STR (38 Casual) and you would have 60 STR (60 Casual). This is incredibly bad for the 75 STR Guy. 

 

You can't grab or punch someone as a 0 phase action.  You can only use that strength on inanimate objects that are in your way, or on someone who is grabbing you.  Everything you list is something that any character can do.  Having a marginally higher casual strength is not something that is worth missing out on the much higher full strength.

 

The values I am using are right.  Casual strength is AUTOMATICALLY HALVED.  To get a casual strength 60, you have to buy 60 Str, + 60 more on a limitation.  You can't just buy +30 Str "only for casual" (well you can, but it only gets you to 45).  What you have been doing is effectively adding a free -1 limitation to it.

 

Massey - You are making some assumptions about what STR is legal / normal for a campaign. In your run of the mill 12 DC attack campaign, all of the constructs you propose are out. You last point is the most salient one for me.

 

- E

 

And you're making assumptions as well.  You're assuming that the character is already at the campaign maximums for anything really useful.  It's easier to directly compare a 100 Str brick to a 60 Str one than to say "we'll I've got +5 PD, and 5" KB resistance, and +2 DCV, and two more slots in my multipower..."

 

But you could just as easily compare your 40 Str brick (40 Str casual) to my 60 Str brick (30 casual).  Which is better?

 

And the fact that you don't even TRY to say that the 60 casual guy is the equal of any of the ones I posted shows that the limitation should be higher.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think its an all too easy mistake to declare absolute modifier values to something like this, since its going to vary from campaign to campaign and GM to GM.  I've played games where using casual strength almost never came up.  I've played ones where it was very common.  There are a lot of variables, and on this topic, I think the best any of us can do is say "in my game, this is what I'd suggest."

 

That said, -1/4 seems absurdly low.

[massey]

I think its an all too easy mistake to declare absolute modifier values to something like this, since its going to vary from campaign to campaign and GM to GM.  I've played games where using casual strength almost never came up.  I've played ones where it was very common.  There are a lot of variables, and on this topic, I think the best any of us can do is say "in my game, this is what I'd suggest."

 

That said, -1/4 seems absurdly low.

 

True, but I think there's value in discussing this stuff here.  A lot of posters on this board seem to be the GMs for their groups, and there's a strong predisposition towards undervaluing any custom limitation a player might want.  I've seen a lot of threads over the years that go something like "My player wants to take a force field that only protects him against friendly fire.  What's that worth?  I'm thinking -1/2, because you know, some villain might have missile deflection or something."

 

A lot of things that should be a -2 get debated here, and there are always like 5 people who are talking about whether it should be -1/4 or -1/2, and there's one guy who will chime in and say he doesn't think it should be a limitation at all.

 

Hashing things out like this helps get people in the right ballpark a lot better.