Rebuilding Martial Arts From Scratch

[Christopher R Taylor]

Limitations of the framework:

Must be related to a martial arts style.

Minimum purchase of N points.

Style is identifiable to other practitioners or knowledgeable persons.

Only usable via purchased weapon elements (one element is free).

Limited pool (Cannot contain X powers)

 

I disagree with the first, because I think a framework that only can do one thing has no place in the hero toolkit; it should work well with  martial arts, but be applicable to other concepts, such as spell systems, skill trees, etc.  Certainly lit should be limited in some ways like other frameworks - require GM permission to put some things in.

 

But the rest is just an attempt to duplicate martial arts as it is now structured, and I think that's not going back far enough.  Whatever we call the framework, it should be more flexible, then can be limited to specific concepts when used for martial arts.

[eepjr24]

 

I disagree with the first, because I think a framework that only can do one thing has no place in the hero toolkit; it should work well with  martial arts, but be applicable to other concepts, such as spell systems, skill trees, etc.  Certainly lit should be limited in some ways like other frameworks - require GM permission to put some things in.

 

But the rest is just an attempt to duplicate martial arts as it is now structured, and I think that's not going back far enough.  Whatever we call the framework, it should be more flexible, then can be limited to specific concepts when used for martial arts.

 

Okay, so what would the boilerplate limitations be then? If there are none, why does the framework give a discount at all? Why not just use Unified Powers?

 

- E

[Christopher R Taylor]

Well its good to study the other frameworks for limitations and structures.  For example: what are the limitations on Power Pool that make it have a discount over buying every power you can think of in a list?  What are the limitations on Multipower?  Because with that as a basic foundation it gives us the concepts to use for a new framework.

 

For example, Elemental Control was rejected because it didn't really actually limit anything but just gave people free points to offset the cost of some build concepts.

[eepjr24]

EC was replaced by Unified Power in my mind, which limits for special effects that are drained as a group.

 

Multipower is drainable as a group, as is VPP.

 

Multipower provides a larger variety of uses than Unified Power and a variable limitation that is more character specific. But generally it is a version of lockout for pool. Fixed slots lock out more points at a time by providing less flexibility for both a specific power and the overall pool. Variable less so for the opposite reasons. An all variable slot, 3 power, 60 AP multipower is about an overall -1 limitation (96 RP for 180 AP), so it looks like the "sharing" aspect of an MP is worth about -3/4 (this varies somewhat on how many powers are bought, the mix, etc). The same MP bought all fixed would run 78 RP for 180 AP, about a -1.25 total limitation. 

 

Given those numbers there is something intrinsic about the pool purchase that provides an additional -1/4 to -1/2 in addition to the lockout value.

 

VPP has too many variables for me to go into during my lunch break. LOL.

 

- E

[Tholomyes]

EC was replaced by Unified Power in my mind, which limits for special effects that are drained as a group.

 

Multipower is drainable as a group, as is VPP.

 

Where do you see this? In 6e1 140, it says: "If a character uses Adjustment Powers such as Drain to reduce or decrease a Power Framework, he must reduce the individual slots rather than the base pool of points. Reducing the base pool of points doesn’t affect the individual slots unless the slots are also reduced." This seems to imply the exact opposite.

[eepjr24]

Where do you see this? In 6e1 140, it says: "If a character uses Adjustment Powers such as Drain to reduce or decrease a Power Framework, he must reduce the individual slots rather than the base pool of points. Reducing the base pool of points doesn’t affect the individual slots unless the slots are also reduced." This seems to imply the exact opposite.

Hrm. You are correct. Too many versions floating around in my head. So apparently you can take Unified Power in addition to the MP discount, either on the pool, the slots or both.

 

In that case, the numbers above for MP are still valid, just without the deduction for unified powers. Which means it is a higher reduction for swapping slots. 

 

I also am not seeing any restriction in 6e on putting skills in an MP. You might not even need a new framework if you use that. Build the maneuvers as fixed slots and most of your problems are solved, point wise, except for the initial buy in. That may in fact be why Aaron set up MA with a 10 point minimum, to help spread the cost of the pool over maneuvers.

 

- E

[bigbywolfe]

Hrm. You are correct. Too many versions floating around in my head. So apparently you can take Unified Power in addition to the MP discount, either on the pool, the slots or both.

 

In that case, the numbers above for MP are still valid, just without the deduction for unified powers. Which means it is a higher reduction for swapping slots. 

 

I also am not seeing any restriction in 6e on putting skills in an MP. You might not even need a new framework if you use that. Build the maneuvers as fixed slots and most of your problems are solved, point wise, except for the initial buy in. That may in fact be why Aaron set up MA with a 10 point minimum, to help spread the cost of the pool over maneuvers.

 

- E

Skills bought as Powers are considered Special Powers in 6E, which are not allowed in Frameworks without GM permission.

[TheDarkness]

I am open to discussing any of them. Having a unique style does not mean you have no style though. It can still be learned by perceptive onlookers or those who have fought him in the past. And it certainly does have it's basis in boxing and probably escrima, with elements from other things (capoeira, kung fu, kali, etc). 

 

As to the powers, you could not model Daredevil for instance without having some powers in the mix. He certainly has an NND and strike based flashes for instance.

 

- E

NND is an advantage, not a power, so it likely could fit in without difficulty.

 

If flash is the only exception that comes to mind, then it might be best, instead of trying to design a framework that allows for it, simply buy it as is outside of the framework. I'm a bit dubious about the idea that anyone should get flash with range of touch for less points than anyone else, just because it is martial arts. I understand that the discount is from the implied framework.

[TheDarkness]

Skills bought as Powers are considered Special Powers in 6E, which are not allowed in Frameworks without GM permission.

And since a skill framework would require tedious amounts of GM permission, if there were a reasonable framework for doing so, it would maintain balance and lighten the load.

 

This is part of the reason I am leaning toward the framework only working with stats and skills, as soon as we add powers in, I think it will be exceedingly difficult NOT to suddenly give a lot of munchkin options. And there being a hard upper limit on stat additions.

[Lucius]

For example, dodge. Dodge does not cost what it represents, because it is a remnant of the martial arts system(I mean, its cost is). For our purposes, it needs to, otherwise we're going to run into some strange problems with modified dodge builds.

I'm....confused. I just don't understand what you're trying to say here. And I am pretty sure Dodge was in Champions way back when Martial Arts had a cost equal to STR and wasn't split up into individual separately purchasable maneuvers.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says I should sleep on it and come back tomorrow.

[TheDarkness]

I'm....confused. I just don't understand what you're trying to say here. And I am pretty sure Dodge was in Champions way back when Martial Arts had a cost equal to STR and wasn't split up into individual separately purchasable maneuvers.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says I should sleep on it and come back tomorrow.

You're correct. I probably didn't word that well. Unless dodge costs what three CSLs for the dodge costs, the price might be problematic for builds off of dodge(martial dodge, for instance), at least for our purposes. I just think we need to avoid arbitrarily assigning values(or grandfathering in old values) if they don't fit or if they actually represent some form of discount. I'm talking about the cost structure of the maneuver, not the maneuver.

 

I was planning on doing some builds of basic maneuvers, I'll see if I can make myself clearer.

[Hyper-Man]

Martial Dodge giving a +5 DCV bonus goes all the way back to the Champions 1e days when the cost of Martial arts was = character's STR.

 

Danger International, one of the last games produced in the 1-3e days, introduced the skeleton of what evolved into the current individually purchased maneuver based martial art skill in HERO.  It is essentially one of the final holdovers from the "Package Deals" of the day as its 10 point minimum from one particular martial art is supposed to come with a 'Style Disadvantage' that can be recognized and taken advantage of by another character with the Analyze Style Skill.

 

Basically, HERO Martial Arts are one of the few exceptions to the general HERO rule divorcing effects from special effects.  HERO Martial Arts ARE special effect driven (specifically, the special effect of normal human bipedal anatomy). 

 

HM

[Hyper-Man]

I also believe that the Block Maneuver is part of the foundation of the HERO combat system. It is THE method for an otherwise slower character (lower DEX) to get "Iniative" vs a faster (higher DEX) opponent.

 

I don't know how or why you would want to try to recreate it via a Power.

 

HM

[TheDarkness]

So dodge

Dodge ½ phase — +3 DCV Dodge all attacks, Abort

 

Cost wise, it's pretty simple: 3 CSLs. The abort does not need to be represented, because abort rules define any defensive action as something you can abort to. So the CSLs represent the main cost. I don't know if how long an action takes(1 phase, 1/2 phase) in Hero is figured into cost, or is just a default to the type of action, so I'm not figuring that in.

 

If 3 small group CSLs(because specific CSLs cannot apply to DCV), then 9 pts.

If +3 DCV, then 15 points

If all HTH, then 24 points

If all combat, then 30 points

 

Forgive me if my numbers are off.

 

Now, we would assume that a martial artist would more likely find one of the above more useful than the others, likely the all HTH CSLs, since martial dodge will not be the only maneuver they wish to use CSLs with, and not all the maneuvers will be defensive.

 

This would put martial dodge at 40 points(or 16 points, if we assume the basic free dodge is a giveaway that we can build on). But, since it doesn't exist outside a framework, this cost only represents the maneuver as is, not how a martial artist would incorporate the build. Of course, for a number of maneuvers, simply having the CSLs can fully represent the maneuver, but not nearly all.

 

I'm starting to wonder if one basis for a pool for a framework should be the cost of the skill levels involved, with another perhaps being the maximum number of skill levels that can be used at one time. Thinking out loud again. Then, the discount would be at the level of the advantaged and disadvantaged uses of stats and skills.

[TheDarkness]

I also believe that the Block Maneuver is part of the foundation of the HERO combat system. It is THE method for an otherwise slower character (lower DEX) to get "Iniative" vs a faster (higher DEX) opponent.

 

I don't know how or why you would want to try to recreate it via a Power.

 

HM

I think the main thing is granularity. The basic maneuvers are good and necessary as is, in regards to play. In regards to their cost structure and the martial arts maneuvers, I think the system works, but prevents the same granularity that the rest of Hero benefits from.

 

That said, block is a tricky one, now that you mention it.

[TheDarkness]

Looking over the rules, block is a seriously tough build. It's defensive, so it can be aborted to. But, the whole forcing an OCV vs. OCV test. And making it determine the initiative of the next round.

 

The test could be triggered, I suppose.

 

How do you build something that gives you initiative the next phase, if and only if both people have actions in that phase?

 

This is making me think I was mistaken before. The free maneuvers, which are the base of most other maneuvers, perhaps should be seen as rules as is. Builds that improve them pay for improvements, nothing more. Something like that. Maybe...

[TheDarkness]

So, if the cost of maneuvers is whatever additions they have over their closest free maneuver cousins, the simplest ones to determine are:

 

martial block requires 4 CSLs

 

martial disarm requires 2 CSLs and +10 STR

 

martial dodge requires 2 CSLs

 

Martial Grab requires 1 CSL and +10 STR

 

Martial Strike requires 4 CSLs

 

Defensive Strike requires 4 CSLs

[TheDarkness]

So, bear with me, but if I understand it, CSLs can only be assigned once per phase.

Assume no free maneuvers. Everything is happening under CSLs I have bought.

 

1) Let's say that, at the beginning of a phase, I assign my only three CSLs to OCV, then part way through the phase I am forced to abort to dodge, can I still do this, since it would require assigning them twice in one phase?

 

2) Let's say I abort to dodge, but have a triggered counterstrike that the dodge triggers. If the trigger involves putting my three CSLs to OCV after the dodge put them to DCV, will that happen, even though I have already assigned the CSLs in that phase?

 

The reason I ask is the answer determines the number of CSLs needed to build the current martial arts stats. If, in one or both of the above examples, it is not allowed, that means that more CSLs are needed, if both are answered yes, then shared CSLs would suffice.

[eepjr24]

FYI, and this is per questions I had to Steve in the Rules forum on 6e, it often makes more sense to buy raw OCV and DCV when the effect is set than it does to buy CSL. So dodge would be 15 points, to start, not 30. If you apply a basic limitations:

 

5 RP: +3 DCV (15 Active Points); Counts as attack action (-1), Cannot be used except when executing the "Dodge" maneuver (-1)

 

Other folks can argue about the value of the limitations, I am just spitballing to get something out there.

 

- E

[TheDarkness]

FYI, and this is per questions I had to Steve in the Rules forum on 6e, it often makes more sense to buy raw OCV and DCV when the effect is set than it does to buy CSL. So dodge would be 15 points, to start, not 30. If you apply a basic limitations:

 

5 RP: +3 DCV (15 Active Points); Counts as attack action (-1), Cannot be used except when executing the "Dodge" maneuver (-1)

 

Other folks can argue about the value of the limitations, I am just spitballing to get something out there.

 

- E

Yeah, thinking about it now, the stat alteration for the free moves makes more sense.

 

I think I was thinking about the martial maneuvers/paid maneuvers, where it would start getting costly to buy DCV and OCV for each move, versus buying CSLs that could be shifted from move to move as needed.

 

Why the 'counts as attack action' portion? Isn't it a defense?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Seems to me that none of the basic combat maneuvers need to be rebuilt; they're already in the game.  Block, dodge, set, haymaker, etc all are part of the rules as a basic system.  All Martial Arts does is make them better.

[eepjr24]

Yeah, thinking about it now, the stat alteration for the free moves makes more sense.

 

I think I was thinking about the martial maneuvers/paid maneuvers, where it would start getting costly to buy DCV and OCV for each move, versus buying CSLs that could be shifted from move to move as needed.

 

Why the 'counts as attack action' portion? Isn't it a defense?

 

6e2 pg 61, emphasis mine:

 

 

DODGE

This Maneuver allows a character to avoid an attack. A character performing a Dodge can’t attack, but is much harder to hit — he adds +3 DCV against all attacks. Characters can Abort to Dodge. Using Dodge counts as an Attack Action.

 

I think this intended to signify both that it ends a characters phase and that they cannot use another attack that round before or after the dodge.

 

- E

[Christopher R Taylor]

Right, Dodge ends your phase because its assumed you're busy dodging and hence not doing anything else.  Plus, its a balancing issue: you get +3 DCV but that's paid for by not being able to take any further actions without stopping that DCV bonus.

[TheDarkness]

Seems to me that none of the basic combat maneuvers need to be rebuilt; they're already in the game.  Block, dodge, set, haymaker, etc all are part of the rules as a basic system.  All Martial Arts does is make them better.

I was working under the erroneous assumption that to build upon them, we would need a clear idea of their costs to determine active points on any further builds. That's probably not the case.

 

Alright, I'm on the same page. Now we just make a framework model, easy peesy.

[TheDarkness]

 

6e2 pg 61, emphasis mine:

 

 

I think this intended to signify both that it ends a characters phase and that they cannot use another attack that round before or after the dodge.

 

- E

 

That makes sense. Thanks for the clarification!