Rebuilding Martial Arts From Scratch

[TheDarkness]

I used to buy skill monsters like Batman with an elemental control -- Detective Skills.  It didn't save a lot of points, but when you have 25 skills, they start to add up and yet aren't a tremendous impact on most games.  It makes sense that Batman can speak some Mandarin and knows the layout of most major cities, but it comes up so rarely the points are hardly worth it.

Yes. I made a street level detective kind of vigilante a while back, an NPC to occasionally work with characters. For his points, I had to play him so smart as far as combat went, because when it came down to it, he had bled a lot of points to have all the skills I wanted him to have. As such, compared to the characters, he was weak. But the players didn't realize that, due to a combination of a few lucky rolls and the fact that I was super cognizant of what he would do in combat. In reality, he was almost always about an inch from getting totally overwhelmed.

 

Being an NPC, I didn't actually have to do the full build, mind you, but I kind of liked the character, even though he was mostly in it for flavor and for a contact for the group.

 

Actually, the thing that started the issue of pools and skills for me was a villain in that game, The Spartan, who was a spirit trapped in a helmet who possessed those who wore the helmet, and they would gain his skills and such. That was a headache. I ended up handwaving a lot of that.

[TheDarkness]

One thing that has come up in the past is the idea that some of my goals were:

 

• Trying to do something with the system that it really wasn't designed for, or...
• Trying for a martial realism that the system wasn't meant for

In response to the second, the way damage works in Hero largely precludes that.

 

In response to the first, I think it is an underestimation of the system, and an overestimation of the complexity of how many things in fighting would affect it.

 

To illustrate that last statement.

 

Martial arts is a lot of detail work. This is certainly true. And knowledge is meaningless without entraining it. However, if you look at how a direct application of common things plays out in Hero, I think you will find that it is hardly a complexity that Hero players wouldn't find utterly simple.

 

Throws

 

At worst, in Hero, four builds could emulate ALL THE THROWS THAT EVER WERE. And we're talking pretty simple builds

 

Strikes

 

Strike already covers a huge number. There's frankly no reason that slight adjustments to the same thing couldn't cover every fist and palm strike AND ALL KICKS in existence. In Hero terms, the difference in damage is not particularly large between the heaviest muay thai kick and a punch. We're talking two, three builds at the most.

 

Feints

Feints are a science in actual martial arts. You develop a number of them, their overuse invalidates their usefulness, etc.

In Hero, it's one build.

 

Reading an Opponent

In actual use, there's so many different things to look out for. Do they look where they're going to strike, do they look this way to hide it, do their shoulders give them away, do they tend to withdraw their foot a little when they're initiating their kick?

In Hero, one damn skill

 

Sweeps

At most, two builds cover all the sweeps(sweeping one leg, sweeping both).

 

Counters

One basic build that is added on to different attacks to make a counterstrike, a counterthrow. Done.

It's a bit maddening, because in reality, counters are like the combination of all the complexities of fighting. They are serious work to become a skilled practitioner of, they are often what separates the wheat from the chaff. Yet in Hero, all that, easily summed up in one basic build.

 

Locks

For some reason, a lot of locking, and especially the martial arts known for it, are interpreted super grimdark, which they certainly can be. The reality is, two builds, one to restrain, one to damage.

 

Crushing

Hero is obsessed with crushing grips in kung fu. I vaguely recall reading the section on Dragon style kung fu. I know some dragon style. You use a strong grip. You don't really crush with it. This is the result of bad translations in the past, but that's neither here nor there. Kung fu styles hate big effort for small return. One semi-famous story has it that the nephew of a great master had his leg crippled by his second wife, who knew some kung fu. In translation, it was translated that she crushed his leg. In Chinese, she seized it. Seize in this case refers to grabbing and locking. Anyway, crushing is part of the meme now, I don't really have a problem with that, but it's one of those weird accidents the way it became part of it. Mostly included this part because I find the whole crushing grip thing is super common in Hero. I prefer my crushing grip with a side of dejected Zod.

 

Draws

Draws are leaving an opening to draw an attack, specifically baiting them to move a particular part of their guard so you can hit them at the opening that creates.

Totally buildable, a few builds based on what the followup attack is.

 

There's more things, but above is a huge amount of martial arts. Covered in a narrow number of builds that are completely doable, completely allow for interesting opportunities, and really don't represent anything game breaking.

[TheDarkness]

A few thoughts around how to define the skill tree aspect of a new type of pool.

 

First, I'll repeat some of the basis I'm working from.

 

So, based first on Christopher Taylor's guidelines:

 

The framework's limitations on purchases seem to be these as i conceive of it:

 

-Only abilities that fit a tight construction concept: martial arts, fire magic, skill tree for Arms Warrior, Ice Elemental powers, Street level detective

 

-Limited application of these abilities, so no crossover (you cannot link to or out of the framework, you cannot use maneuvers with other maneuvers, etc)

 

-You must buy in a specific order or grouping (cannot buy this ability until you buy the previous one in the skill tree, or you must buy at least 3 separate maneuvers)

 

Then, my extrapolations:

 

It could be a rule of the frame that first tier would be:

1. The base power without advantages, with or without disadvantages, if it still fulfills the effect, or...
2. The base power with the least advantages to achieve the effect

Further, I'm thinking the pool might require skills, not just allow them.

 

It allows them a discount, and for non-combat skills does not require sub-slots, and if it has them, those would probably involve specific subskills within that skill.

 

And

 

 

Skills that are used throughout the pool are listed and their cost placed under the pool heading.

 

Skills that are only used in subslots are included in their header.

 

Skills listed in a Skills Pool may ONLY be used for what is laid out in that pool. This will have less effect on non-combat skills, only serving to make it more feasible to make a street detective or that sort of thing.

 

For the combat skills, it will have a bigger effect. CSLs in that pool cannot be applied to maneuvers they do not have in that pool, including the free maneuvers(which are, in effect, in their own Skills Pool that is completely subsidized).

 

Finally:

 

In essence, this pool would be for those things that characters do that are in the order of a power, but either require associated skills or are skills in a narrow field. Batman could not put his driving skill in here, that's just maybe a skill he's good at in his skills list. But his detective skills, with disguise and forensics and all, would go in one. Mister Fantastic's science skills would go in one.

 

On the higher order of power, a sorceror, with their spells tied to knowledge of the powers that be and the rituals and all, could likewise make use of it.

 

BUT, unlike a VPP, they could not simply buy the big powers that they want. They would be forced to pay for tiers, and while it is discounted, it will still cost. While the biggest cost will be the pool to power the most powerful spells, the small spells maybe still add a little. And every group of powers must have an associated skill.

So, thoughts, using martial arts as a starting point, but trying to keep in mind applicability for other uses.

 

Skills or maneuvers that naturally require another skill or maneuver to have them must be purchased after the necessary skill or maneuver.

 

So, for example, to counter-throw requires knowledge of the throw one is dealing with. So one must have throws already to buy counterthrow.

 

I am still considering whether one should have to buy counterthrow for each type of throw. I suspect I will go this route, since there will likely only be four different builds that cover every kind of throw possible.

 

Same with counterstrike, feint, and draw.

 

The difficulty I'm facing now is how to determine the maximum value that a first tier power could be. I am thinking that all other tiers would be based off of a percentage of the range of the first tier. The reason being, we don't want this to just be elemental control again, with free points being too available. So, let's say I determine a spell for first tier, some simple but useful fire spell, but what I want to get to is a crazy AOE fire extravaganza that I can contract and enlarge at will. To use this pool to do so, I have to look at the first build that determines the first tier, and, either when I make my character or as I spend experience, buy spells for all the tiers between the first and the one I want.

 

What this suggests to me is the need for some means to determine what guideline to use in determining what the 'minimum effect' is, otherwise people will be like, no, the effect I want is a one mile sphere of fire.

 

So, the minimum could be the base power, plus the minimum level of advantage of the chief advantage if the advantage is required for the effect.

 

Conversely, maybe instead, if the narrow range is maintained, we can avoid that mess. So, if we have a pool for elemental fire magic, we determine the powers that we'll have in it. If we have a active point cap for tier one of X, players will naturally have to find ways to fill that if they want to get to X+[a boatload of points].

 

I don't know, I'll have to ruminate on this.

[TheDarkness]

I think next I well return to the basic builds while I think about the skills pool.

[Sean Waters]

I like the MA system in Hero; having said that there are problems.

 

I like the idea of a 'shorthand' attack, built almost like a talent, so all you need to worry about is the cost, not the build.  Mind you, I'm not sure we got the cost right.  +1 DC is effectively +5 STR (0 END, not for lifting or throwing or jumping), so should cost at least 5 points, possibly 6.

 

Martial Arts gets less useful, or at least less cost effective, the more manoeuvres you buy.  That don't seem right.

 

I do like it because it feels different from simply buying extra Strength and skill levels, even if that is (mainly) what you are doing.

 

I would introduce a basic 'trip' manoeuvre to that anyone can have a go at.  Then there is a 'target falls' element in the game that anyone can use so no need for fancy builds.  I'd also introduce a basic 'choke', as anyone can strangle anyone, or try to.  Matbe it would be an option for a grab to the head: you can make the damage NND, perhaps, if the target needs to breathe/circulate blood normally.  I'd also allow anyone to try a kill strike.  Anyone can eye gouge or try and break your arm.

 

The only thing I probably would not put in Basic is Nerve Strike.  Personal preference, but seems liek something that is NOT a basic types of attack

 

Counterstrike seems to me like a limited attack: you only do the damage if you are attacked and the damage affects the target after they attack you.  It is not a trigger because you can't do anything else while it is running.

 

What you COULD do, right, is build all martial arts as skill levels (you'd need to add in that +1 DC can be used as +5 STR for holding, if that is not a rule already).  How it differs from normal skill levels is that you have to define what you will be using the skill levels for, and you can not change that later.  For this you get a cost break (Does not apply to 2 point OCV levels, obviously).

 

This sets the tone for the Martial Art: balanced, high damage, defensive, precise.  Everything is then a modification of the basic manoeuvres, with extra skill.  Obviously you can buy additional skill levels without limitations to make the MA more flexible.

 

That feels like a martial art but does not use any special rules.  Except the new basic manoeuvres.  And the one about DCs being used for extra STR.

 

Apologies if someone already suggested this.  Long thread.

[Sean Waters]

So, some jiggery-pokery:

 

All CSLs can add to OCV, DCV or damage, yes, even the 2 point ones.  2 point CSLs apply only to a single manoeuvre.  All skill levels that add to DCs can also add to effective STR for holding, escaping and throw distance: obviously you can not use them for both increased damage AND increased STR – you have to ‘set’ them for the manoeuvre.

 

3 point levels apply to 3 manoeuvres you pick at creation.

 

5 point skill levels apply to all modified manoeuvres.

 

You get a cost break on the total cost of -1/2.

 

You might build a basic martial art around a few manoeuvres, say boxing:

 

Strike

Block

Dodge

 

All those you get for free.  You then have to buy your skill levels.  You’ll probably want to buy some 2 point ones with Strike first, say +1 OCV and 2 more for +1DC of damage, that is 6 points and makes a basic strike +1OCV, +1DC of damage.

 

Then you buy a 3 point level with basic boxing (the three manoeuvres above) and stick that on DCV.

 

You then have:

 

Strike: +1 OCV +1 DCV +1 DC

Block: +0 OCV +1 DCV

Dodge: - +4 DCV

 

That is 9 points, and you get -1/2 for ‘setting’ the levels, so it has cost you 6 points overall.

 

That, of course is the same as 2x3 point levels, which would have allowed you to manage a better dodge or block but not as good a strike.  That seems reasonably balanced.

 

Offsetting

For 1 point you get a new manoeuvre by trading OCV and DCV and DCs.  Every 1 point penalty you take on OCV or DCV equals a 1 point increase in the other.  Every 2 points of OCV or DCV (or one of each) equals +1 DC.  You could also trade a DC for +2 OCV or DCV or one of both.  You need to be a bit sensible with this: generally OCV, DCV and DCs for a basic offset manoeuvre should be I the range -4 to +4.

 

Later on you have more points and want to get more manoeuvres.  You add a 1 point Offset manoeuvre, which is a hard strike.  You want +2 DC, and you offset that with -1 OCV and -3 DCV.

 

You take that and Roll With punch (basic manoeuvre, so no cost).

 

You then increase your 3 point level to a 5 point level to cover everything, and buy another 5 point level for OCV.  Note that the 5 point OCV level has no effect on your Block as it does not use OCV, so you could nominate another manoeuvre, say trip, because you’ve learned how to foul too.

 

Total cost is 5x2+3x2+1 = 17 points.  This comes down to 12 points with the -1/2

 

That means your boxing package is now as follows:

 

Strike: +2 OCV, +1 DCV, +1 DC

Block: +1 OCV, +1 DCV

Dodge: - +4 DCV

Hard Strike: +1 OCV -2 DCV +3 DC

Roll with Punch: -1 OCV -1 DCV

Trip: 0 OCV -2 DCV

 

Given that this comes to 17 points you might as well create a couple of other offset manoeuvres, or chuck in an extra 2 point skill level as it will not increase the cost.  For 12 points you could have (say) 4x 3 point levels: this would let you have a dodge of +6 DCV, which is a lot, but you couldn’t do such an effective Strike.

 

You could have 5 x 2 point levels, which would let you emulate the bonuses for the strike but you’d get nothing on anything else, or make any of the other manoeuvres much more effective.  You could have 2  x 5 point levels and a 2 point level – well, you get the idea.