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5th Ed. Transformation: Consecrating objects


Wardsman

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Part of the reason people are recoiling from using Minor Transforms might be that they are thinking in terms of 5th (10 points per d6) rather than 5th (5 points per d6).  At that cost, I agree Minor is too much.  Its also why you should at least drop the 6th edition cost structure (Cosmetic 3/d6, Major 10/d6, Total 15/d6) into your 5th edition game, if not move to 6th.

That is the cost structure 4th edition as well as I recall.

And yeah that bump in cost startled me.

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I would say its not cosmetic because it is changing the item beyond its normal range of simple appearance and sensory alterations. Turning your sword blue: cosmetic. Making your sword do extra damage to creatures vulnerable to a kind of attack: minor.

This here is the factor which is the difference between "cosmetic" and "minor". If it only changes the appearance and not the function, the change is cosmetic. If it changes the function, adds or subtracts abilities, then it is at least minor. In this case, it is not changing the basic functionality of the object but it IS increasing the effctiveness of said object, thus it is beyond a cosmetic change and slides into the region of minor.

 

Thata how I would rule it.

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Surely there are two distinct notions here that need very different approaches.

 

1 creating holy ground is a function of a professional skill "priest" that requires ks "religious rituals". The effort in role playing terms that it would take to have the head of your religion authorise the use of this would make it self limiting. The perk "priest" is required to create holy water on holy ground.

 

2 holy weapons are major magic items, and should be created using those rules. With the advantage damage is holy.

 

What is more problematic is what effect do holy ground and items have on creatures that don't believe in your God. For example what effect would Christian holy items have on Shinto vampires. If you accept that holy is limited to only those who believe then the comparative ease of access to holy water is balanced.

 

I had to have a head scratch on this one when running a horror campaign a few years back. And found if you allow it as a transformation you end up drowning in holy submachine guns and hand grenades.

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What is more problematic is what effect do holy ground and items have on creatures that don't believe in your God. For example what effect would Christian holy items have on Shinto vampires. 

 

 

This is a really modern concept, presuming either pluralism or no deities at all and its just subjective fear.  If you presuppose that at least one deity exists, then belief or atheism has no impact: its the power of that deity, not their faith or lack thereof that causes the effect.  Generally speaking horrific undead monsters aren't exactly what you'd call faithful.

 

And found if you allow it as a transformation you end up drowning in holy submachine guns and hand grenades. 

 

 

Well typically in fantasy games the genre allows the GM to limit who can bless and what can be blessed.  If you're truly relying on the existence of a deity's power, then it is not something to be presumed upon or taken frivolously.  But if you're running just a wild, fun game then having the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch can be perfectly acceptable.

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Interestingly, I restarted converting an old module. In it the monk has a spell call bless salt. The description says that the salt will stop any dead thing from rising to become an undead. So after reading this thread, im going to write it up as cosemetic change and declare that anu necromatic spells would have the limitation not work on bodies blessed by salt.

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This here is the factor which is the difference between "cosmetic" and "minor". If it only changes the appearance and not the function, the change is cosmetic. If it changes the function, adds or subtracts abilities, then it is at least minor. In this case, it is not changing the basic functionality of the object but it IS increasing the effctiveness of said object, thus it is beyond a cosmetic change and slides into the region of minor.

 

Thata how I would rule it.

 

So if I want a Transform to turn things yellow, and you say it's Cosmetic, I now know that Green Lantern does not, and CAN not, exist in this setting.

 

Or if he does somehow make an appearance, my Transform suddenly gets more expensive.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

A yellow palindromedary and a green llama

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So if I want a Transform to turn things yellow, and you say it's Cosmetic, I now know that Green Lantern does not, and CAN not, exist in this setting.

 

Or if he does somehow make an appearance, my Transform suddenly gets more expensive.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

A yellow palindromedary and a green llama

There's a reason why the Green Lantern books dropped that limitation.

 

Its silly.

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Surely there are two distinct notions here that need very different approaches.

 

1 creating holy ground is a function of a professional skill "priest" that requires ks "religious rituals". The effort in role playing terms that it would take to have the head of your religion authorise the use of this would make it self limiting. The perk "priest" is required to create holy water on holy ground.

 

2 holy weapons are major magic items, and should be created using those rules. With the advantage damage is holy.

 

What is more problematic is what effect do holy ground and items have on creatures that don't believe in your God. For example what effect would Christian holy items have on Shinto vampires. If you accept that holy is limited to only those who believe then the comparative ease of access to holy water is balanced.

 

I had to have a head scratch on this one when running a horror campaign a few years back. And found if you allow it as a transformation you end up drowning in holy submachine guns and hand grenades.

 

An equally important notion that needs to be defined up front is whether this is for a Supers* or Heroic setting. I am using the term Supers to define power level here, not genre.

 

The assumption in Supers is that everything needs to be paid for.  So in that context the various power build approaches make sense.

 

However, a Heroic setting assumes mundane stuff is just stuff.  A cell phone is just stuff. A can of yellow spray paint is just stuff.

 

*High power Fantasy Hero games can be done using the Supers philosophy. 

 

HM

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So if I want a Transform to turn things yellow, and you say it's Cosmetic, I now know that Green Lantern does not, and CAN not, exist in this setting.

 

 

No, it just means that Green Lantern's limitation is just as stupid and bad as it should be.  The cost structure of painting something yellow doesn't change because Green Lantern exists.  The value of his limitation does.  Besides, its not like the fact that turning something yellow is cosmetic means everyone can then turn things yellow.

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So if I want a Transform to turn things yellow, and you say it's Cosmetic, I now know that Green Lantern does not, and CAN not, exist in this setting.

 

Or if he does somehow make an appearance, my Transform suddenly gets more expensive.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

A yellow palindromedary and a green llama

Im not understanding your meaning. Why woyldn't the Green Lantern exist?

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Back to making items holy. I'm running 5e so correct me if I'm wrong, but transform can't simulate other powers. So surely if you wish to make sword do holy damage what you need is a spell, rka 3d6 with the normal spell disadvantages plus no range, required component a weapon, damage limited to weapon normal damage plus str, the advantage damage is holy and usable by others. This is an exspensive way to do it but just because hero level fantasy characters don't pay points for normal weapons doesn't mean they don't pay for powers. The advantage holy damage elevates the weapon to the level of a real power especially in a fantasy campaign. If the discussion was using transform to change arrows in to flaming fire arrows who wouldn't agree this is a rka spell bought cheaper with the disadvantage component normal arrow consumed after one attack.

 

The the green lantern as stated before had a really poor disadvantage. And a yellow sword dose normal damage. The change is cosmetic, no special power is imbued into the sword. It is just the green lantern got a stack of points for his disadvantage.

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Im not understanding your meaning. Why woyldn't the Green Lantern exist?

......

 

Okay, lemme try to explain what it is I was trying to say and the context in which I was saying it.

 

I was responding to Nu Soard Graphite's statement that if he is running a game no character may use a Cosmetic Transform to trigger another character's Complications or Limitations.(I'm paraphrasing.) From this it would follow that if he allows me to change the color of an object to yellow with a Cosmetic Transform, there is nothing in the setting he is using that is mechanically effected by the color yellow. Nothing with defenses that don't work against yellow, nothing with attacks that don't work against yellow, no one that takes damage from yellow, etc.

 

Because if there were, he'd make me use Minor Transform at least to turn anything yellow. Or for that matter, to change something that is yellow to another color. Maybe changing something from red to blue could be a Cosmetic Transform if no one and nothing is "triggered" by those colors.

 

Either that, or I could use a Cosmetic Transform to make something "look yellow" but somehow it's not "yellow enough" to make a difference to someone's Susceptibility or Vulnerability because a Cosmetic Transform is barred from having any such actual effect.

 

My position, which I see I must have unwittingly obscured, is that the above is fundamentally absurd and that changing the color of an object with Transform is a Cosmetic Transform and the existence or non existence of characters who have Complications or Limitations involving that or any other color does not change that.

 

My statement "If I can turn something yellow with Cosmetic Transform then I know the Green Lantern" (in at least one published form) "does not exist" was intended to highlight the absurdity of a position I disagree with.

 

I now regret having opened my mouth in the first place

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says, but does that mean you're going to shut up now, Lucius?

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The the green lantern as stated before had a really poor disadvantage. And a yellow sword dose normal damage. The change is cosmetic, no special power is imbued into the sword. It is just the green lantern got a stack of points for his disadvantage.

I can't speak for anyone else, but to me

 

that.

 

 

is.

 

 

the.

 

 

point.

 

 

Turning the sword yellow doesn't give it "+x vs guys who got Vulnerability to yellow." It just triggers the Disavantage/Complication.

 

Similarly, turning a sword holy doesn't I(necessarily) give it "+x vs evil demons." If the evil demons don't happen to have any Complications or Limitations pertaining to holy things (other than sneering or snarling and saying "Yuck, I hate all that purity and holiness crap")I think it's pretty obviously a Cosmetic Transform. Right?

 

If that's so, then it is STILL a Cosmetic Transform if evil demons DO happen to have Complications or Limitations pertaining to holy things.

 

Now, if you want to, you CAN have a blessing or consecration make a more substantial change to something - say, give a consecrated sword a "smite evil" power that's basically Deadly Blow with a "holy" special effect. Then you might get BOTH the added damage, AND whatever the demon's Vulnerability is. And in that case, I would agree that you can't create such a sword with a Cosmetic Transform. I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone else is saying that either.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Reconsecrating a palindromedary

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I think this thread really explains why 5e has a big stop sign next to the transformation power. I'm not a big fan of it outside the hands of NPCs that I control. Or the limited spells that I approved. The wording is quite woolly and contradictory. It states you can't simulate powers but you can change people into creatures with powers. You can't change people into any thing that will kill them imminently but you can change them into things that are very easy to kill. Could any one tell me if any of this is tightened up in 6e.

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Back to making items holy. I'm running 5e so correct me if I'm wrong, but transform can't simulate other powers. So surely if you wish to make sword do holy damage what you need is a spell, rka 3d6 with the normal spell disadvantages plus no range, required component a weapon, damage limited to weapon normal damage plus str, the advantage damage is holy and usable by others.

It depends if you're adding damage, or just changing the sfx of the damage. If the holy sword does the same amount of damage it usually does except the damage is considered holy, then that's a change of sfx not necessarily a new power. The fact that demons and certain other creatures have a Vulnerability or Susceptibility to holy weapons is, rules-wise, their problem. OTOH, if being holy adds additional damage on top of the sword's normal damage, then yes that's probably a new power build.

 

This is an exspensive way to do it but just because hero level fantasy characters don't pay points for normal weapons doesn't mean they don't pay for powers. The advantage holy damage elevates the weapon to the level of a real power especially in a fantasy campaign.

Whether or not PCs pay points for magic items is up to the GM and varies from campaign to campaign, so you can go either way here. My usual rule is if someone wants to start with a magic item that is central to their character concept, then they pay points for it; but I don't make them pay points for items they find in game, I just control the supply.

 

I think this thread really explains why 5e has a big stop sign next to the transformation power. I'm not a big fan of it outside the hands of NPCs that I control. Or the limited spells that I approved. The wording is quite woolly and contradictory. It states you can't simulate powers but you can change people into creatures with powers. You can't change people into any thing that will kill them imminently but you can change them into things that are very easy to kill. Could any one tell me if any of this is tightened up in 6e.

6ed adds another page of clarification and examples, but the language is fundamentally the same. Transform is perhaps the most broad and wide-open Power in the book, and the language reflects that fact. And yes, in the wrong hands it is definitely open to abuse, hence the Stop Sign - the GM should absolutely scrutinize all Transform Powers to make sure someone's not playing munchkin. As long as the Power is clearly defined and appropriately limited, it's fine; the problem comes when players want open-ended "Transform Anything Into Anything Else" type spells, which are a recipe for campaign breakage.

 

Re the "don't use Transform to simulate other Powers" thing, think of it this way:

  • I want a spell that turns someone into a basilisk, which among other things, has a Death Stare power. My spell is built as "Transform person into basilisk" - the Death Stare on the basilisk's character sheet is built as a Drain Body (or RKA or whatever).
  • I want a spell that just gives someone a Basilisk Death Stare, but doesn't otherwise change them. Depending on how you want it to work, my spell could be built as "Transform person into person with Basilisk Death Stare power," or I could build it as "Basilisk Death Stare, Usable By Others." (There are pros and cons for each approach.)
  • What I would not do is build the Basilisk Death Stare as "Transform person into corpse" because there are already other powers and mechanics for killing people; that would be an example of using Transform to simulate other Powers.

Does that make more sense?

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Surely there are two distinct notions here that need very different approaches.

 

1 creating holy ground is a function of a professional skill "priest" that requires ks "religious rituals". The effort in role playing terms that it would take to have the head of your religion authorise the use of this would make it self limiting. The perk "priest" is required to create holy water on holy ground.

 

2 holy weapons are major magic items, and should be created using those rules. With the advantage damage is holy.

 

What is more problematic is what effect do holy ground and items have on creatures that don't believe in your God. For example what effect would Christian holy items have on Shinto vampires. If you accept that holy is limited to only those who believe then the comparative ease of access to holy water is balanced.

 

I had to have a head scratch on this one when running a horror campaign a few years back. And found if you allow it as a transformation you end up drowning in holy submachine guns and hand grenades.

 

That is one take on it. Others would make that consecration spell either based on CE or transform of some sort. Though skills you suggested i'd make part of the spell.

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It depends on the campaign. Let's say I'm playing a priest who can bless objects and make them holy.

 

If I'm playing in a 1970s mafia game, then this ability does nothing. Fat Tony and Big Al may come to my church on occasion, and ask me to baptize their kids, etc, but my ability to make things holy only does something in a roleplaying sense. It has no actual game effect. No one is going to be using a holy sword in this campaign. "Holy water" is (as far as the game effect, not trying to start a religious argument here) just water that the priest has said is important. It is not measurably different in any way. This should not even be a cosmetic transform. It is part of Perk: Catholic Priest.

 

A witch doctor in a jungle tribe can do a ritual and make a particular rock or something holy. And when the explorers come in and they disturb the rock, the tribe gets mad and tries to kill the explorers because they disturbed the sacred rock. This has, perhaps, a little game effect, but only because of the status of the witch doctor within the tribe. Making the rock sacred doesn't have to have a supernatural effect. It just has to be important to the tribe. Now if the sacred rock put a magical curse on the explorers, that would be different. But if it's just a rock you're not supposed to touch or the natives get mad, that's really just an aspect of their culture. Again, this requires no transform. Making a rock sacred doesn't require a power any more than re-zoning a piece of property from commercial to residential. That's something a bureaucrat does by filling out forms, not by using a power.

 

So really it depends on the campaign. I think a lot of people are letting their experiences with other games influence their perceptions here. What "holy" means in D&D is not necessarily what it means in some other game.

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It depends on the campaign. Let's say I'm playing a priest who can bless objects and make them holy.

 

If I'm playing in a 1970s mafia game, then this ability does nothing. Fat Tony and Big Al may come to my church on occasion, and ask me to baptize their kids, etc, but my ability to make things holy only does something in a roleplaying sense. It has no actual game effect. No one is going to be using a holy sword in this campaign. "Holy water" is (as far as the game effect, not trying to start a religious argument here) just water that the priest has said is important. It is not measurably different in any way. This should not even be a cosmetic transform. It is part of Perk: Catholic Priest.

 

A witch doctor in a jungle tribe can do a ritual and make a particular rock or something holy. And when the explorers come in and they disturb the rock, the tribe gets mad and tries to kill the explorers because they disturbed the sacred rock. This has, perhaps, a little game effect, but only because of the status of the witch doctor within the tribe. Making the rock sacred doesn't have to have a supernatural effect. It just has to be important to the tribe. Now if the sacred rock put a magical curse on the explorers, that would be different. But if it's just a rock you're not supposed to touch or the natives get mad, that's really just an aspect of their culture. Again, this requires no transform. Making a rock sacred doesn't require a power any more than re-zoning a piece of property from commercial to residential. That's something a bureaucrat does by filling out forms, not by using a power.

 

So really it depends on the campaign. I think a lot of people are letting their experiences with other games influence their perceptions here. What "holy" means in D&D is not necessarily what it means in some other game.

My original post got lost. However I was going to ammend it to say that you gave an excellent description why something should be defined as cosmetic so how do you envision when to use cosmetic?

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Btw real world religions describe the spirit realm as invisable to the naked eye so any spiritual powers wiuld be bought as IPE and unless you have the proper senses: detect vs spirit, anything that is blesses would still look normal to you.

 

Let me add, just because you see the special effect doesn't mean you should know the mechanical rules.

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Making a rock sacred doesn't require a power any more than re-zoning a piece of property from commercial to residential. That's something a bureaucrat does by filling out forms, not by using a power.

I'm not disagreeing with you....

 

Zoning Authority: (Total: 52 Active Cost, 9 Real Cost) Change Environment (Alterable Size, Long-Lasting Permanent), Area Of Effect (4m Surface; +1/2), MegaScale (1m = 1 km; Area; +1) (52 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Hour, -3), OAF (Lots of forms; -1), Requires A Bureaucratics Roll (Skill roll; -1/2), No Range (-1/2) (Real Cost: 9)

 

...I just thought it would be fun to write up the power anyway

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Filling out the form of a palindromedary

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You missed a few key disadvantages for your rezoneing power.

 

Makes absolutely no real physical change -1, can be ignored by any one with a good lawyer -1/2, can be ignored by anyone willing to pay fines -1/2, law role to enforce extended time 1 year -6,requires a vote to enact -1/2, other voters are independent and open to bribes and black mail -1, Use restricted by local by laws -1 1/2, side effect transform 4d6 cumulative normal person into smug self important bureaucrat -1 Making it 3 real points.

 

Or you can call it what it is and say it's an ability conferred by the 3 point perk local zoning officer.

 

 

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My original post got lost. However I was going to ammend it to say that you gave an excellent description why something should be defined as cosmetic so how do you envision when to use cosmetic?

 

Cosmetic would be a visible change.  In the real world, a sacred object doesn't look any different than a non-sacred object.  I mean I can't tell the difference between holy water and regular water.

 

See I think the ability to make something holy or sacred, could be anything from Perk: Priest, all the way up to a Major Transform or even a VPP.  But that's gonna depend on exactly what you want it to do, and how the campaign functions.

 

I'd say a Cosmetic Transform "to holy" would probably make an item, I dunno, more shiny?  Like you use it on regular water and now it's suddenly kinda glowy and twinkley?  

 

Btw real world religions describe the spirit realm as invisable to the naked eye so any spiritual powers wiuld be bought as IPE and unless you have the proper senses: detect vs spirit, anything that is blesses would still look normal to you.

 

Let me add, just because you see the special effect doesn't mean you should know the mechanical rules.

 

I suppose you could buy things IPE if you wanted to.  But I don't think you'd have to.  That's really a campaign thing.  I do agree that seeing a special effect doesn't mean you automatically know what the power is.

 

So a lot of this goes back to a common issue.  How do I do XYZ special effect?  And the answer is "however you want".  It really is decided by what you want it to do, specifically, and what the assumptions are in the game you're playing in.  In some games it will come up often enough that it's worth establishing some universal rules for how to handle a given special effect.  In others it won't.

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