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Hmmm...I wonder what the difference could POSSIBLY be?   It couldn't be as simple as "you're an individual and have none of the business concerns facing the publisher of the material", could it?  I mean, that just makes too much sense.

 

From the TOS on Drivethrurpg: 

 

 

As with digital sales, you get paid 70% or 65% of the price the customer pays, depending on whether you are an exclusive partner with OneBookShelf or non-exclusive. On print sales, though, you receive your share of the margin after the print cost of the book (or cards) is taken off the selling price.

 

Huh.  35-40% (or greater) loss on revenue.   I see what you mean -- no reason whatsoever why the 6E1/6E2 volumes shouldn't be offered there.

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Since I assume the same economies are in effect for all the other 6th edition core library volumes, I continue to scratch my head as to why the two core rule system volumes are singled out for exclusion from POD availability. Especially since they are natural prerequisites for the others. Or did Hero Games eliminate POD availability for all its 6th edition products while I wasn't looking?

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Do you really not think at ALL about business or relative costs?

 

Look at the last sentence that I quoted from the TOS.  That part about the margin after print cost of the book is taken off of the sale price.  Pesky little detail, I know.  Apply it to what you know about the various books in question.  Consider the size of 6E1 and 6E2 and the "print cost" that will be taken off of the sale price...prior to the 40% take of drivethrurpg.  That's your cost metric for consideration.

Maybe you thought that the print cost that would be taken off would be static across the board (regardless of the size of the book, the complexity, the amount of graphics, etc.).  If so, I would suggest that you perform similar business calculations as what we'll get into for DriveThruRPG -- they're not going to lose money on their end (even potential money) just because a given book is larger than average.  The risks are greater for them, the costs are greater, and their charges are (correspondingly) greater.

 

Now let's talk business for a moment, shall we?  Might as well have someone do it, since you don't seem to want to go that route...

 

The 6E rulebooks are the core of the Hero System.  Does it seem like a particularly sound business idea to take the core of your business model and cut out (at a guess) 60-70% of your return?  Myself (as an admitted neophyte in business), I'd prefer to put out some of my entry-level offerings to POD sources -- take the hit on those in the hopes that you attract new players to the system who will (in turn) purchase your core products.  That's just me, though.

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Well, you are right in one respect. I am not a "business person." But I fail to understand a sales policy that says no (hardcopy) sales at all are preferred over some (number of) sales at a "small" profit margin. Once the PDF is in DriveThru's hands, there is no cost to endure on Hero Game's part, is there? There is no brick & mortar overhead. There is no cost to stock or ship that Hero Games has to pay (since they are not handling fulfillment). Their "cut" from the POD service is pure profit against virtually zero expenses (at this stage).

 

Oh, wait, you are concerned that POD sales would cannibalize PDF sales which are pure profit with significantly higher margins. I think that is a misguided view of the Hero System customer base, but at least now I understand the nature of the reluctance to provide POD volumes of 6e1/6e2.

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Please think before you post.

 

Do you really think that there is an unlimited pool of potential sales out there? That putting a product up for sale in one place (or in one format) won't impact the sales of the product in another place (or another format)?

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"Available for purchase"? In .pdf, I suppose. But 5er is also still available in the online store, so it remains available as well. And the Complete books are the current state of the rules, as I believe Jason has stated on one occasion on the forums. To me, that makes them "real books". I still cling to my two volumes of 6e.

 

In my view, however, the Rules Question Board should be accessible to someone who bought Hero for the first time at his FLGS and has a question. That's not the current state of the rules board. When a MHI buyer posts a question and is referred to books he did not buy, and which he is not supposed to require to play the game, I think that's a problem.

 

I agree with Hugh here, and since he and I don't agree on a lot, that should tell you something. Champions Complete is the latest version of the rules. This is what I was told by Jason, what I write for in order to be published, and that's the end of the matter. 

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I agree with Hugh here, and since he and I don't agree on a lot, that should tell you something. Champions Complete is the latest version of the rules. This is what I was told by Jason, what I write for in order to be published, and that's the end of the matter. 

When you agree with someone who is wrong, that just makes you wrong as well. 6e is the latest version of the rules. CC is a subset of those rules.

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When you misunderstand him or misinterpret what he says?  

 

1. Look at the top of every page on this site.  Tell me what it says.

 

2. Saying that you need to be compliant with the rules in CC means you need to be compliant with HERO System 6th Edition.  If you were talking about writing a Champions supplement, then yes, that is the book you'd want to concern yourself with -- that subset of the 6E rules.  If you were talking about writing a Fantasy Hero supplement, guess which book you'd be told to be in compliance with?  Now guess which book you'd be told you need to be in compliance with if you wanted to write a Western Hero supplement or book -- I'll give you a hint: it's in 2 volumes and rhymes with Hero System 6th Edition.

 

3. Don't trust me on this?  Talk to Jason.  I do it all the time.  CC follows Hero System 6th Edition.  It lacks some of the rules in the main rulebooks...because that's the point behind it.  FHC follows Hero System 6th Edition in the same way.  Know what the official rules for Hero System are?  6th Edition.

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I'll be nice here and spell this out a bit more verbosely.

 

A company (let's call them DOJ) has an RPG system that is particularly crunchy.  For the sake of argument, we'll refer to it as a 2 volume set: 6E1&2.  Arguments about its merits vs previous versions of the system aside, it is pretty crunchy and presents a fairly intimidating entry to new players (from both a financial and complexity standpoint).

 

DOJ would like to attract new players to the system (like every other RPG company out there). Realizing that a generalized/universal system is an attraction for a long-term or ongoing player, but not necessarily for a new player (who wants to try the system in a singular setting/genre), they decide to make some entry-level books.  These books should be "complete" in that players looking to play in or run a campaign in a particular genre should need only the one book in question.  Remove many of the examples and explanations from 6E1&2 (since they mainly apply for more experienced players looking to get official guidance on some of the finer points of the system).  Strip off any rules that are not deemed pertinent to the genre (e.g. Classes of Minds, expanded Language Familiarity Chart, etc.).  In general, reduce the size and complexity/crunchiness of the individual books and, in so doing, reduce the cost. Further reduce the cost by cutting DOJ's own profit margin, making the books as cheap/easy of an entry point as they can be.

 

Note, these books still follow the rules put forth in 6E1&2 -- they represent subsets of those same rules. They don't expand on anything. They don't introduce anything new. They don't even revert some of the controversial changes that were made when moving from one version of the rules to the next. They just represent genre-specific subsets of the main (core) rules for the system. 

 

As a means to attract new players to the system, this works fairly well.  Not a roaring success, but it's unlikely that that level of success is even possible in an industry that has been shrinking as much as the RPG industry has been.

 

So...fast forward slightly.  You have some existing players/users of the system approaching DOJ, looking to write supplements (like Strike Force), or run official events at conventions.  They ask what book they should use.  If the book or event falls into one of the genres for which the complete entry level books have been written, they're told they should use them.  Because that's how the books are sold -- if you haul out references to Classes of Minds in your Champions supplement, people are going to cry foul, as Classes of Minds aren't covered in that book.  This does not mean that the complete books replace the core rule books.  It doesn't mean that Classes of Minds are no longer part of the Hero System. It means simply that the complete books are exactly what they were built as: entry point devices for new players which simplify the system.  They're a starting point, not a replacement for the full 6E1&2.

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I'll be nice here and spell this out a bit more verbosely.

 

A company (let's call them DOJ) has an RPG system that is particularly crunchy.  For the sake of argument, we'll refer to it as a 2 volume set: 6E1&2.  Arguments about its merits vs previous versions of the system aside, it is pretty crunchy and presents a fairly intimidating entry to new players (from both a financial and complexity standpoint).

 

DOJ would like to attract new players to the system (like every other RPG company out there). Realizing that a generalized/universal system is an attraction for a long-term or ongoing player, but not necessarily for a new player (who wants to try the system in a singular setting/genre), they decide to make some entry-level books.  These books should be "complete" in that players looking to play in or run a campaign in a particular genre should need only the one book in question.  Remove many of the examples and explanations from 6E1&2 (since they mainly apply for more experienced players looking to get official guidance on some of the finer points of the system).  Strip off any rules that are not deemed pertinent to the genre (e.g. Classes of Minds, expanded Language Familiarity Chart, etc.).  In general, reduce the size and complexity/crunchiness of the individual books and, in so doing, reduce the cost. Further reduce the cost by cutting DOJ's own profit margin, making the books as cheap/easy of an entry point as they can be.

 

Note, these books still follow the rules put forth in 6E1&2 -- they represent subsets of those same rules. They don't expand on anything. They don't introduce anything new. They don't even revert some of the controversial changes that were made when moving from one version of the rules to the next. They just represent genre-specific subsets of the main (core) rules for the system. 

 

As a means to attract new players to the system, this works fairly well.  Not a roaring success, but it's unlikely that that level of success is even possible in an industry that has been shrinking as much as the RPG industry has been.

 

So...fast forward slightly.  You have some existing players/users of the system approaching DOJ, looking to write supplements (like Strike Force), or run official events at conventions.  They ask what book they should use.  If the book or event falls into one of the genres for which the complete entry level books have been written, they're told they should use them.  Because that's how the books are sold -- if you haul out references to Classes of Minds in your Champions supplement, people are going to cry foul, as Classes of Minds aren't covered in that book.  This does not mean that the complete books replace the core rule books.  It doesn't mean that Classes of Minds are no longer part of the Hero System. It means simply that the complete books are exactly what they were built as: entry point devices for new players which simplify the system.  They're a starting point, not a replacement for the full 6E1&2.

In germany you get 5 years of Economics education with your normal school education.

You get another 3 years with many of the jobs you learn.

As a result I can boast with 8 years of basic econmics teachings.

Nothing on the level of a merchant or shopkeeper, but good enough for one clear expression:

What Simons writes is truth. As much truth as the earth being (roughly) spherical.

It is a truth so ingrained for people who know about the mater, explaining it feels almost like insulting the people by spouting such obvious facts. It is like asking "you do know that the earth is not flat?" A truth so simple and fundamental, we can not even explain it properly.

 

Economics discussion are kinda like dicussions on video game forums on "what should have been done". As a programmer I find them personally insulting because half the time it is utter *bleep* that has not even an inkling of sense. Or it runs in a 180° degree angle to the reality of the thematic.

You arguing about a themathic you so obviously have no inkling of a idea about is insulting to the people that do and make the decisions. All you are doing are making yourself look dumb.

You think that you are somehow smarter then decades or centuries worth of gathered experience is insulting (that is how long programming, math and economics are around).

 

Part of growing up is knowing when you don't know *bleep* about a thematic.

Sorry, but everyone arguing about the economics of selling a gamesystem to people who do this job doesn't know *bleep* about economics. That you even make those arguments is proof of that fact.

Please just inform yourself first to realise how wrong you have been all this time. Realise how much sense that wierd world you never looked into makes once you actually try to udnerstand it.

And please stop making us explain stuff so basic, we can not even explain it properly anymore.

 

As luck would have it, there is now a nice handy resources regarding the truths of videogames. Of wich the most part applies to any gaming effort and any economics efforts.

It is a Youtube Series caleld "Extra Credits". You ever thought about how wrong it was for Bethesda to sue someone over the use of the word "Scrolls" when there was no obvious connection? This video tells how wrong you are:

Asume you are at least that wrong about any themathic you think are smater then 3 decades to 3 centuries worth of gathered experience and training. It is the grown up thing to do.

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This topic is done.  Hugh is now being moderated (and has been "officially" warned rather than relying on the unofficial route which failed previously).  Surrealone - you're done with this topic and this false crusade you appear to be on with Hugh.  Do not post on it again in these forums.  Is that clear enough?

 

 

 

While I agree with everything you've said in this thread, I think it'd only be fair simply to lock it and the other one if the two parties invested in the other side of the argument are unable to respond.

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Basically put, DOJ has been doing this for a long time. They do know what works and what dose not work depending on the financial status of there targets.

 

The current hangups on there side of there products are, the change from a paper based product to an electronic based product, the after effects of The Great Recession, and how to attract new people to there product.

 

I keep my fath in DOJ/Hero Games. They survived about three diffrent downturns already (the first downturn after Champions 3 till joining with ICE, the downturn after leaving ICE, and The Great Recession). They earned there nickname "The Cockroach Of Gaming", and wear it with pride. No matter what, Hero will survive.

 

Nuff said.

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Then you have zero concept of business in general or the insanely tight / small market for rpgs in particular.

I have a pretty good view of the miniscule market and the challenges it poses. I am so keenly aware of it that I know better than to try to run an RPG business with the inadequate resources at my disposal. I know how difficult it is to keep the lights on in this so-called industry when your name isn't Wizards of the Coast.

 

The thing is, I'm not sure that such awareness (in the minds of potential new customers) goes very far in extinguishing the perception that when faced with a customer that is keenly interested in affordable hardcopies of 6e1/6e2, DOJ is not interested in even permitting (the sale of) such a product, and only because the margins aren't high enough (or more precisely, not higher than the PDFs). Telling such customers that they can just buy the PDFs and then go print them out on their own isn't likely to win them over as new fans.

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"Margins not high enough" is kind of an odd way of phrasing "60-70% loss of one of your core products".  Particularly when you're talking about a core product which is not your "entry level" product/offering (those are available in hardcopy on this site).

 

So, yeah, I have yet to see you express a grasp (keen or otherwise) of the business considerations for DOJ.

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"Margins not high enough" is kind of an odd way of phrasing "60-70% loss of one of your core products".  Particularly when you're talking about a core product which is not your "entry level" product/offering (those are available in hardcopy on this site).

Yeeee! Which would mean that increasing the price of those products to the point where DOJ would break even would be more than the market could bear. Getting the price to where the company would make even a modest profit would be pretty bad. Which means that DTRPG wants to charge you all $90 to print a single 6e1 full color heavy weight paper(they don't do light weight paper in color anymore), Hard Covered. That would be around$140 retail for one book Assuming a "normalish" 50% margin. That IS steep.

 

Also assuming that the majority of fans already own the Hardcover edition of those books, doing a Kickstarter would probably be a failure. Reality sometimes sucks, but a business DOES have to make money to pay it's employees.

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I still don't get why people don't just buy the PDF and have a copy printed and bound however they like locally? DOJ is clearly fine with that model. Who cares if it is "in print" (an outdated concept at this point, since it used to define the actual availability of the content and that is no longer true) or not as long as you can get a hard copy whenever you want? Even better, you can customize it to only print the bits you want (like the powers sections) and leave the rest electronic for when you need to reference it.

 

- E

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I actually got into a discussion of "in print" with some friends, as the definition they stood by was "hardcopy available" and I stood by "available by any format" as I've basically switched entirely to PDF gaming books just due to space and desire to have them on hand while out gaming...

 

I looked it up, the Publishing Industry does not care about availability, "In Print" is "Contract with the author is still active" - it doesn't matter if there are 1 million or 1 copies available for sale. If the contract is good, the book is in print.

 

I still stand that in the modern industry, available will also include PDF/ebook formats. I know a few small, mostly romance, companies that are digital only. Which by "hardcopy available" definition means nothing they have is In Print.... a concept I find silly.

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It's easier said then done when it comes to printing some PDFs. Espcially the Hero 6E Core. Sure I can print out certain sections I need. To print them out on my own is simply not worth it. Even in black and white ink. Forget about color ink. It's going to cost me at least 100$ or more. Considering 6e Vol 1 is 466  and Vol 2 is 322. That's why some of us wish it was in print. Why should myself or anyone else assume the cost when it's really up to Hero Games. I might as well buy it used on Amazon in print. Even with the crazy amount of money some sellers are asking for. With all due respect I'm only going to recommend the PDF. No way no how am I spending 200$+ to print the books out.Or tell anyone else interested in getting the core. Or recommend Champions Complete. 

 

Even printing it out on my own it's still going to drain a ink cartridge which on their own can be expensive as well. Unless one prints certain sections they need. Again it's 788 pages in all. Not economical. Which is some of us would like to have the option of both print and PDF. Even then in PDF it's a dense amount of information to go through. One would need to be really good at editing and bookmarking PDFs or reading fast. To me it's something that should be read in print imo. 

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It's easier said then done when it comes to printing some PDFs. Espcially the Hero 6E Core. Sure I can print out certain sections I need. To print them out on my own is simply not worth it. Even in black and white ink. Forget about color ink. It's going to cost me at least 100$ or more. Considering 6e Vol 1 is 466  and Vol 2 is 322. That's why some of us wish it was in print. Why should myself or anyone else assume the cost when it's really up to Hero Games. I might as well buy it used on Amazon in print. Even with the crazy amount of money some sellers are asking for. With all due respect I'm only going to recommend the PDF. No way no how am I spending 200$+ to print the books out.Or tell anyone else interested in getting the core. Or recommend Champions Complete. 

 

Even printing it out on my own it's still going to drain a ink cartridge which on their own can be expensive as well. Unless one prints certain sections they need. Again it's 788 pages in all. Not economical. Which is some of us would like to have the option of both print and PDF. Even then in PDF it's a dense amount of information to go through. One would need to be really good at editing and bookmarking PDFs or reading fast. To me it's something that should be read in print imoYou can print it 

You can print it at the UPS store, double sided, black and white 28lb (heavy duty) paper, with clear cover and vinyl back bound for $71. Did you see the bit above where Tasha figured out it would run $150 ish if Hero did it? If that is your preference: http://www.amazon.com/Hero-System-6th-Character-Creation/dp/1583661204

 

This was not the cheapest I found, but I figured UPS is pretty universally available. You can actually find cheaper online and have it mailed to you.

 

- E

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It's worth repeating that only 6e1 is completely out of print. 

 

There are still 200+ copies of 6e2 still available in print format from the Hero store.

http://www.herogames.com/forums/store/product/468-hero-system-6th-edition-combat-and-adventuring-damaged-cover-bookpdf/

 

HM

None of them are "Out of Print" according to the publishing world. They are still available in PDF and under contract.

 

- E

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