Jump to content

RQ style spirit combat in Fantasy Hero


Wardsman

Recommended Posts

This popped in my while discussing magick systems on other threads. 

How would you do RQ spirit combat? The point is to learn spirit magick but you could use it for other things like spirit possession, disease spirits, etc.

 

RQ spirits actually had very few stats. I guess Ego and Endurance would substitute for Power. I need to dig up Avalon Hill rules.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

XDM? I'd have to see exactly what you were trying to do to guess more than that. Strikes me as rather like Astral combat.

 

- E

No in the Glorantha fantasy setting spirits were everywhere. They were the main source of disease via possession by disease spirits.

To learn Spirit magic a shaman or priest summoned the spirit of the spell at the rank you wanted to learn and you had to defeat in spirit combat.

 

I need to dig those RQ books up. Spirits were scant on stats. If I recall correctly they were a power stat rating and whatever effect they had.

Almost like naked effects with ego and maybe endurance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think this needs some really careful thought when setting up the campaign.

 

Normal people could not initiate spirit combat, only ghosts etc could do so.  Tame cult spirits were defeated under the supervision of priests to provide cultists with access to their magic.  Shamans could initiate spirit combat with spirits.

 

Essentially the spirits, if they won, took possession of the body of the person and though it was not explicit in the rules, we played that those spirits might be cast out and the original spirit restored if you could get the right person (or shaman) to help find the original and kick out the possessor.

 

This means there is a spirit plane (XDM) that can be crossed if you have the relevant powers.  It also means that the spirit plane is the source of spirit magic and folk can access powers if they have established a link with the relevant point of the spirit plane.

 

To me, this sounds like ghosts have INT, EGO and POW, EDCV and EOCV.  A person can be attacked by a spirit and defend himself but cannot initiate a combat unless he has the relevant power (has become a shaman).  That is easily defined, for the spirit, as mental powers with extra-dimensional properties.  For the non spirit, there is a need to be able to fight back.  That does not reflect the current mental powers.  I would be inclined to make spirits susceptible to PRE attacks - where a PRE attack accumulates "MIND CONTROL DAMAGE". [TM]

 

The idea would be that each combatant was looking to achieve 4x INT in accumulated "MIND CONTROL DAMAGE" and the first to do so would achieve their aim - possession or access to magic.

 

The possession power in one of the Advanced Player Guides is likely to be useful here though you could hand wave a defeat in spirit combat will result in either possession or servitude.

 

The interesting thing is the spells - you will not be able to cast a spell until you have defeated a spirit and you will only be able to increase the power of the spell if you defeat a suitably more powerful spirit.  It provides real detail in a way that RQ never did,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

The possession power in one of the Advanced Player Guides is likely to be useful here though you could hand wave a defeat in spirit combat will result in either possession or servitude.

 

The interesting thing is the spells - you will not be able to cast a spell until you have defeated a spirit and you will only be able to increase the power of the spell if you defeat a suitably more powerful spirit.  It provides real detail in a way that RQ never did,

 

I think this needs some really careful thought when setting up the campaign.

 

Normal people could not initiate spirit combat, only ghosts etc could do so.  Tame cult spirits were defeated under the supervision of priests to provide cultists with access to their magic.  Shamans could initiate spirit combat with spirits.

 

Essentially the spirits, if they won, took possession of the body of the person and though it was not explicit in the rules, we played that those spirits might be cast out and the original spirit restored if you could get the right person (or shaman) to help find the original and kick out the possessor.

 

This means there is a spirit plane (XDM) that can be crossed if you have the relevant powers.  It also means that the spirit plane is the source of spirit magic and folk can access powers if they have established a link with the relevant point of the spirit plane.

 

To me, this sounds like ghosts have INT, EGO and POW, EDCV and EOCV.  A person can be attacked by a spirit and defend himself but cannot initiate a combat unless he has the relevant power (has become a shaman).  That is easily defined, for the spirit, as mental powers with extra-dimensional properties.  For the non spirit, there is a need to be able to fight back.  That does not reflect the current mental powers.  I would be inclined to make spirits susceptible to PRE attacks - where a PRE attack accumulates "MIND CONTROL DAMAGE". [TM]

 

The idea would be that each combatant was looking to achieve 4x INT in accumulated "MIND CONTROL DAMAGE" and the first to do so would achieve their aim - possession or access to magic.

 

The possession power in one of the Advanced Player Guides is likely to be useful here though you could hand wave a defeat in spirit combat will result in either possession or servitude.

 

The interesting thing is the spells - you will not be able to cast a spell until you have defeated a spirit and you will only be able to increase the power of the spell if you defeat a suitably more powerful spirit.  It provides real detail in a way that RQ never did,

I not getting your references Advanced players guide?

What detail are you advocating for? RQ you had defeat a more powerful spirit to learn the spell at a higher power.

And in a setting like Glorantha the spirits are not on another plane so EDM isn't necessary.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

I not getting your references Advanced players guide?

What detail are you advocating for? RQ you had defeat a more powerful spirit to learn the spell at a higher power.

And in a setting like Glorantha the spirits are not on another plane so EDM isn't necessary.

 

There was the APG and APG II.  I think the possession rules were in the APG available in pdf here.  The physical book for the APG II is still available in the store.

 

There is a common problem with folk thinking about HERO where there is disconnect between the description of something in game mechanics and what that means in game narration.

 

In Glorantha spirits were separate from the physical world.  PCs were not able to affect the spirits unless the spirits engaged in spirit combat with them.  Spell teaching was something Rune Priests learned to do and that used Rune Magic to force a spirit into spirit combat with the PC so that the PC could gain access to the magic.

 

Now.  As far as HERO mechanics go, the easiest way to reflect that is to put the spirits in another dimension that interfaces with the physical world and where suitably powered up individuals on either side can work across that boundary.  That works for Glorantha as the spirits were on the Spirit Plane - the place that Shamans would go to work more closely with spirits.  This was different to the God Plane where rituals could be enacted to change or strengthen the mythical underpinning of the physical world depending on how powerful the HeroQuesters were.

 

Otherwise you will have to explain why PCs cannot simply walk up to spirits and engage them in combat (physical or mental) anytime they so desire.  Why is there a need for priests and shamans?

 

Doc

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When I did it, it was with a series of Magic Skill roll competitions, with the loser taking the difference in stun damage (or Body, if the spirit had no stun).  Any mage could engage in such a duel with any other mage in the process.  The battle took place in a matter of miliseconds, basically a turn of psychic battle was a phase of real time.  The more descriptive and interesting the depiction of combat - or the more appropriate for the situation - the better their roll.  So if the PC turns into a dragon in spirit combat to melt the ice monster, they get a bonus, for example.  Each round was one exchange, rather than on speed or phases.  Four rounds = a turn.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There was the APG and APG II.  I think the possession rules were in the APG available in pdf here.  The physical book for the APG II is still available in the store.

 

There is a common problem with folk thinking about HERO where there is disconnect between the description of something in game mechanics and what that means in game narration.

 

In Glorantha spirits were separate from the physical world.  PCs were not able to affect the spirits unless the spirits engaged in spirit combat with them.  Spell teaching was something Rune Priests learned to do and that used Rune Magic to force a spirit into spirit combat with the PC so that the PC could gain access to the magic.

 

Now.  As far as HERO mechanics go, the easiest way to reflect that is to put the spirits in another dimension that interfaces with the physical world and where suitably powered up individuals on either side can work across that boundary.  That works for Glorantha as the spirits were on the Spirit Plane - the place that Shamans would go to work more closely with spirits.  This was different to the God Plane where rituals could be enacted to change or strengthen the mythical underpinning of the physical world depending on how powerful the HeroQuesters were.

 

Otherwise you will have to explain why PCs cannot simply walk up to spirits and engage them in combat (physical or mental) anytime they so desire.  Why is there a need for priests and shamans?

 

Doc

No spirits were in the wild You could get attacked by disease spirits or chaos spirits..

 

Spell spirits were a bit more esoteric. In the divine paradigm they associated with a deity.

We didn't deal shamans So I;m not sure how they gathered the needed spirit.

 

I guess you could hunt them down but where do you find bladesharp spirits.

 

I think statting them out and using summons is the way to go . But the trick is the build.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No spirits were in the wild You could get attacked by disease spirits or chaos spirits..

Took me a while to understand what you meant here. Yes, you could be attacked by spirits, usually chaos or disease spirits or simply ghosts. The big tell here is that they could attack you, you could not attack them.

 

That suggests to me that they live slightly apart from the world and in HERO that is best reflected as being in a different dimension. Even in the Gloranthan material there is heavy mention of the spirit plane. Will try to find something to quote. :-)

 

 

Spell spirits were a bit more esoteric. In the divine paradigm they associated with a deity.

We didn't deal shamans So I;m not sure how they gathered the needed spirit.

 

I guess you could hunt them down but where do you find bladesharp spirits.

 

I think stattu=ing them out and using summons is the way to go . But the trick is the build.

You find spell spirits on the spirit plane, some priest has to go there, hunt one down, bind it and bring it back to the mortal plane to combat the person who wants to learn the magic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Took me a while to understand what you meant here. Yes, you could be attacked by spirits, usually chaos or disease spirits or simply ghosts. The big tell here is that they could attack you, you could not attack them.

 

That suggests to me that they live slightly apart from the world and in HERO that is best reflected as being in a different dimension. Even in the Gloranthan material there is heavy mention of the spirit plane. Will try to find something to quote. :-)

 

 

 

You find spell spirits on the spirit plane, some priest has to go there, hunt one down, bind it and bring it back to the mortal plane to combat the person who wants to learn the magic.

People forget that in RQ everyone has some magic even the warriors and rogues. Hell even some the players of RQ forget that.

I had to explain to a longtime player why I was a trickster initiate. While yes there were thief gods. They A) are minor and B) tied to one city.

A roving rogue does better to go Trickster. A lot of the same skills very cool magic(Illusions, Strike from murderer aspect) and you can double initiate with Orlanth for good combat training and his spells. Great for a fighter/rogue type.

 

Brings up another point In RQ enchantment and summoning were skills if I recall correctly. They had a really cool and different take on enchantment and repairing enchanted items. 

But you bring up a point without the right spell (Spirit sight?) you could not see spirits. And I think it took magic or engaging in a pow battle. 

The rules I need to bone up on to see if I want to replicate or not.

 

 

remember shades?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I dont just remember them.  Am currently running an RQ2 game with my gaming group - have them currently stuck down some krashtkid tunnels in the Big Rubble, running from a priest of primal chaos.  When they get out they will have to negtiate the troll lands where a shade may be a distinct possibility...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I dont just remember them.  Am currently running an RQ2 game with my gaming group - have them currently stuck down some krashtkid tunnels in the Big Rubble, running from a priest of primal chaos.  When they get out they will have to negtiate the troll lands where a shade may be a distinct possibility...

Never played that oe. I wish I had the Sandals of Darkness spell for Orlanth in RQ3. And the Sword that bites like the wind. They sound cool.

 

I meant Darkness elementals. For those who don't know in RQ Darkness was more than shadow. For Shadow and Cold descended from Darkness.

What I know is RQ3. Never touched the Mongoose stuff was based BRP or Wizards of the Coasts game engine.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Never played that oe. I wish I had the Sandals of Darkness spell for Orlanth in RQ3. And the Sword that bites like the wind. They sound cool.

 

I meant Darkness elementals. For those who don't know in RQ Darkness was more than shadow. For Shadow and Cold descended from Darkness.

What I know is RQ3. Never touched the Mongoose stuff was based BRP or Wizards of the Coasts game engine.

 

Ah.  My bad.  i presume a RQ fan is a Glorantha fan.  You did not play much in Glorantha proper? - was a real disappointment to me that RQ3 introduced a division between the system and the setting and possibly the reason the system did not ultimately succeed in overtaking D&D as it was seeking to.

 

The BRP has become pretty prevalent in many things despite its flaws.

 

Anyway - shades/darkness elementals are the ones that Gloranthan trolls would use - so I was on the same page! :-)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ah.  My bad.  i presume a RQ fan is a Glorantha fan.  You did not play much in Glorantha proper? - was a real disappointment to me that RQ3 introduced a division between the system and the setting and possibly the reason the system did not ultimately succeed in overtaking D&D as it was seeking to.

 

The BRP has become pretty prevalent in many things despite its flaws.

 

Anyway - shades/darkness elementals are the ones that Gloranthan trolls would use - so I was on the same page! :-)

I'm a Gloranthan fan. Avalon Hill had Glorantha . They just had other settings as well. I heard good things about the viking setting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would make Spirits use the Computer and/or AI rules.

 

Such "characters" have no BOD or STUN and unless bought on a Focus, tied to a Base, etc simply by default can't be engaged in normal combat and destroyed.

 

Here's a take on Spirit Combat

 

Spirit Combat: (Total: 221 Active Cost, 65 Real Cost) Drain OMCV OR DMCV 3d6 (standard effect: 9 points), Simplified: Always either take 1 OMCV or 1 DMCV, target's choice, Alternate Combat Value (uses OMCV against DMCV; +1/4), Cumulative (72 points; +1), Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per 6 Hours; +2) (127 Active Points); Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Whenever attacking, the target gets to use this power for free as a counter attack; -2), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Side Effect always occurs whenever the character loses all MCV pts; Destroyed if OMCV or DMCV reduced to zero; -1 1/2), No Range (-1/2), Side Effects (If attack fails, target gets a free mental attack roll to force a task (as per Summon); -1/2) (Real Cost: 23)

<b>plus</b>

Possession (Mind Control Effect Roll 45; Telepathy Effect Roll 30), Trigger (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action to reset; Succeeding in spirit combat; +1/2) (94 Active Points); No Memories (-1/2), No Range (-1/2), Restrainable (Only by means other than Grabs and Entangles; -1/4) (Real Cost: 42)

 

 

In Runequest, spirit combat is based on a POW vs POW roll (at least, that's what I remember) and the spirt and target basically are tearing away at one another's POW. So I make it based in Hero on mental combat and Drain. The spirit rolls to take away either one OMCV or one DMCV (target chooses) BUT this means the target gets the same roll vs the spirit with the same consequences. If the spirit is reduced to zero in either trait it is destroyed. Each success by the target gives a chance to force the spirit to some task (such as, teach a spell) and each success by the spirit gives a chance to possess.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary asks if there are any runequestions?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 10 months later...

POWer: (Total: 4 Active Cost, 1 Real Cost) Endurance Reserve (16 END, 0 REC) Reserve: (4 Active Points); Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Lose 1 OMCV or 1 DMCV every 2 Charges expended, until Charges recover; -1), 16 clips of 1 Charge (-3/4) (Real Cost: 1)

 

POWer: (Total: 6 Active Cost, 2 Real Cost) Endurance Reserve (24 END, 0 REC) Reserve: (6 Active Points); Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Lose 1 OMCV or 1 DMCV every 2 Charges expended, until Charges recover; -1), 32 clips of 1 Charge (-1/2) (Real Cost: 2)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary manifests the Runes of Beast and Harmony

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...