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Star Wars using Hero...?


pbemguy

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Christopher Taylor, if you haven't seen Star Wars Rebels and get a chance, please do. Kanan is the Jedi though not even a knight. It shows how a party can be.

 

And I mentioned Seeker because he still is considered a "normal" human albeit highly trained. Just like Boba Fet or would Defender be a better analogy?

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I would argue that, if you're running a prequels-style Star Wars game, the default is probably PCs being among the best of the best.  It's a very over-the-top era, so I would expect PCs to be on a par with the likes of Jango Fett, Obi Wan, Rex or any of the other major heroes.

 

For an OT style game, I'd expect PCs at the level of Han, Luke or any of the crew from Rebels, none of whom would stand a chance against prequel-era jedi.  Even Luke during RoJ was still vulnerable to massed mook fire and got caught by a Bobba Fett entangle and didn't exactly walk through other encounters either.  Basically, at this level, PC Jedi won't be fully trained to start.  They'll, at best, start out equivalent to ESB Luke or Rebels Kanan.

 

Finally, all of this focuses a bit too much on combat prowess, in my opinion.  Yes, all PCs should be in roughly the same ball park, but they don't have to be dead even in a one-on-one fight with each other.  Combat-focused Jedi, Mandalorian mercenaries and high-end bounty hunters are going to be your combat monsters.  Other PCs will be able to hold their own against second-tier opposition and still walk all over mooks, but focus a higher percentage of their builds into non-combat skills so that when blaster bolts aren't flying, they get the spotlight.

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Well its the same dilemma as, say, The Justice League with Batman fighting alongside Superman and Martian Manhunter, etc. Or Avengers with the Wasp by Hulk and Thor. The writers make it work for the story but in a game? Different rules.

So we shouldn't play a JLA style game then? Im not arguing that there isn't a potential power gap playing Star Wars but then there is this potential in other genres too. Yes a Jedi might not be Mace Windu in power but thats like prohibiting a Silver Age Superman in your Champions game.

 

Im really surprised at your stance Christopher Taylor be ause honestly if this was any other genre I wouldn't see you agrue.

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So we shouldn't play a JLA style game then?

 

 

I think its very hard to run one, and I doubt many people even try.  Crafting a one-shot where you can get street level man to have a meaningful role in an adventure that challenges epic cosmic power man is doable.  A campaign?  Extremely difficult.  The balance isn't there so you have to build every scenario around trying to make it work.

 

You can do it if you want to and can work it out.  My point is just that Hero is so specific and correct in its balance that stories which work only where a writer controls them fall apart in a gaming setting.  Dude with gun vs dude with gun and telekinesis, ESP, bonus CV, telepathy, etc... don't balance.

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I think its very hard to run one, and I doubt many people even try. Crafting a one-shot where you can get street level man to have a meaningful role in an adventure that challenges epic cosmic power man is doable. A campaign? Extremely difficult. The balance isn't there so you have to build every scenario around trying to make it work.

 

You can do it if you want to and can work it out. My point is just that Hero is so specific and correct in its balance that stories which work only where a writer controls them fall apart in a gaming setting. Dude with gun vs dude with gun and telekinesis, ESP, bonus CV, telepathy, etc... don't balance.

Then you just shouldn't play fantasy either. You know guy with sword versus guy with spells and pointy ears.

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Fantasy balances fine, because the guy with the spells doesn't also fight with martial arts.  Frankly I'm surprised Hero players don't see this more clearly.

Stop thinking of this as Star Wars, the produce I love.  Stop thinking of this in terms of favorites or not.

 

Just think in terms of hero balancing characters with points.  Build Han Solo with points, and build Luke Skywalker, both of them in Return of the Jedi.  Compare them in Hero terms not "I love this story" terms.

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Just think in terms of hero balancing characters with points.  Build Han Solo with points, and build Luke Skywalker, both of them in Return of the Jedi.  Compare them in Hero terms not "I love this story" terms.

 

Hey not fair. Han Solo's player had to take a long break from the campaign so they suspended Han Solo in Carbonite and he didn't get any XP for several sessions. :D

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Fantasy balances fine, because the guy with the spells doesn't also fight with martial arts.  Frankly I'm surprised Hero players don't see this more clearly.

Stop thinking of this as Star Wars, the produce I love.  Stop thinking of this in terms of favorites or not.

 

Just think in terms of hero balancing characters with points.  Build Han Solo with points, and build Luke Skywalker, both of them in Return of the Jedi.  Compare them in Hero terms not "I love this story" terms.

Everyone's perceptions of what the characters can and can't do very wildly. ie For Han I would probably give him a stupid amount of combat luck. Shots never seem to hit him or ships he pilots. He's also fast and very accurate with his blaster. He's also quite the talker, so both a Large Presence and good skills at talking individuals into and out of things. Not to mention some extra dice for the Pre Attack for surprise actions.

 

Chewbacca is a fracking superhero all by himself. With Superstrength, I would imagine he's quite tough (no matter how much he complains when he is wounded). He's also a pretty good mechanic. Also give him a great fear based Pre Attack based on his roar. 

 

I guess what I am saying is that everyone bellyaches about all of the Jedi powers but forget that in Hero you can also load a PC up with "superskills" WHICH IS WHY I POINTED PEOPLE AT NINJA HERO. Which is chock full of those kind of skills. It's what you need to make your non Jedi Heroes the equal of the Jedi and still feel like they aren't force users.

 

Building a party of characters mixed Jedi and non force users just takes making sure that everyone is based on the same amount of points and thinking outside the "They are a normal person" box. Star Wars Characters are BIG DARN HEROES. Allow everyone to be great. Have lots of mooks to show them how great they are. Then have baddies and neutrals on their level or more powerful.

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WHICH IS WHY I POINTED PEOPLE AT NINJA HERO.

 

 

That's a good way of looking at it.

 

Imagine you have a martial arts campaign.  Most characters just have martial arts skills, regular real-world abilities and equipment.

 

Then you have a special class of characters in the game that have enchanted weapons and wild martial arts abilities.  They can run up walls and balance on a twig and so on.

 

Not exactly balanced, eh?  Jedi are built on more points in the movies than non-Jedi.  You can balance the characters, but you have early Luke crappy Jedi running around with experienced capable characters... or you have the full experienced Jedi next to full experienced regular characters.

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That's a good way of looking at it.

 

Imagine you have a martial arts campaign.  Most characters just have martial arts skills, regular real-world abilities and equipment.

 

Then you have a special class of characters in the game that have enchanted weapons and wild martial arts abilities.  They can run up walls and balance on a twig and so on.

 

Not exactly balanced, eh?  Jedi are built on more points in the movies than non-Jedi.  You can balance the characters, but you have early Luke crappy Jedi running around with experienced capable characters... or you have the full experienced Jedi next to full experienced regular characters.

 

But, that's really no different from fantasy where, Folk in full plate armor are balanced against magicians who can fly. Who can rain fire down on the battle. But this works in fantasy and esp Fantasy Hero. Because we stick to the core philosophy of the system. That allows for no absolutes, nothing that is a 100% defense. That means that the Jedi Blaster Bolt Deflection isn't ever going to be perfect. The Lightsaber doesn't really HAVE to be the ultimate weapon just as long as it's deadly enough.

 

I would turn one of your comments back on you. "Compare them in Hero terms not "I love this story" terms"  Build stuff to be the Star Wars Flavor, not slavishly trying to exactly show what you saw on screen. I would rather have a fun game with the flavor of star Wars, than a game that followed some interpretation of the movies so close that it wasn't fun for everyone. When something switches medium sometimes compromises have to be made for the medium you are converting for (ie RPGs). 

 

Oh and nearly no one wants to play the side kick. They want to play the Hero(ine). This is HERO, you CAN make an awesome RotJ Luke and still have Leia, Lando, Han and Chewie be able to keep up with him. It's ok for everyone to be awesome. It won't take away from the Jedi's awesomeness.

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Tasha under Ninja Hero 4th its a wold martial arts game.

 

Christopher Taylor. Jedi are awesome however if you go by Luke even the in RotJ, I believe you are overstating how powerful Luke is. Yeah he has TK but looks like he is concentrating to lift up C-3PO. ESP you say? Its enough to detect other Force Users and imbalance but if it was so specific and combat useful, how did he ever fall for the trap that Darth Vader set in ESB? Luke had maybe some super leap by RotJ.

 

Oh by medium, I think the video games is where we have uber Jedi. Galen Maerik anyone?

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Christopher Taylor does point out some potential problems though that definately need GM and Player communication. I had this problem where a friend was running a failed Jedi in our game WEG D6 during classic era and he thought he was running a prequel Jedi.

 

Speaking of, I once ran across a link on a thread that led to a Blog where the Blogger describes season one of Star War Rebels as if it was a WEG D6 game.

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That's a good way of looking at it.

 

Imagine you have a martial arts campaign.  Most characters just have martial arts skills, regular real-world abilities and equipment.

 

Then you have a special class of characters in the game that have enchanted weapons and wild martial arts abilities.  They can run up walls and balance on a twig and so on.

 

Not exactly balanced, eh?  Jedi are built on more points in the movies than non-Jedi.  You can balance the characters, but you have early Luke crappy Jedi running around with experienced capable characters... or you have the full experienced Jedi next to full experienced regular characters.

 

That's why you allow the non-Jedi access to skill and talent-based powers.  Tasha already pointed out the ones available in Ninja Hero and I mentioned the ones in Dark Champions and Pulp Hero.  Once you add in those, the difference between the Jedi and other characters is mostly SFX and not power level.

 

As Ninja-Bear pointed out, RotJ Luke wasn't so uber-powerful that he made the rest of the cast even close to useless.  He still needed Leia's help in chasing down the fleeing scout troopers on the speeder bikes.  He still needed Lando, Chewie, Leia and the droids' help in rescuing Han from Jabba. 

 

So long as you've got your campaign limits set and don't allow the Jedi to exceed them, you'll be able to achieve balance.  After all, people in this very thread have done it running SW Hero games.

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Tasha under Ninja Hero 4th its a wold martial arts game.

 

Christopher Taylor. Jedi are awesome however if you go by Luke even the in RotJ, I believe you are overstating how powerful Luke is. Yeah he has TK but looks like he is concentrating to lift up C-3PO. ESP you say? Its enough to detect other Force Users and imbalance but if it was so specific and combat useful, how did he ever fall for the trap that Darth Vader set in ESB? Luke had maybe some super leap by RotJ.

 

Oh by medium, I think the video games is where we have uber Jedi. Galen Maerik anyone?

 

Well, there's that, the first hand-animated Clone Wars cartoon (where Mace Windoo takes out an entire droid battleforce with his bear hands) and some EU novel nonsense (where Jedi occasionally toss around star destroyers; before The Force Unleashed).  The Jedi power creep started in the comics and novels but if you stick to just the movies, CGI Clone Wars and Rebels, Jedi are a lot more reasonable.

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