Star Wars using Hero...?

[Storyarama]

Seems a sensible route.

 

Man, that vitality rule is terrible. Yeesh.

Tell me about it. That's why the GM wants to use Hero instead. Then you can use The Force as much as you have END for, and can actually recover END much faster than Vitality. I know the developers of the D20 Star Wars didn't want the Jedi overpowering everyone else, but that was just ridiculous.

[TheDarkness]

Tell me about it. That's why the GM wants to use Hero instead. Then you can use The Force as much as you have END for, and can actually recover END much faster than Vitality. I know the developers of the D20 Star Wars didn't want the Jedi overpowering everyone else, but that was just ridiculous.

There's a point at which they should have recognized that, hey, this seems nothing like a jedi. Players might want to play a jedi that feels like a jedi in a Star Wars game.

[Chris Goodwin]

Keep in mind that the prequel trilogy was the equivalent of an all- or most-Jedi game, while the original trilogy was the equivalent of a more rounded campaign.  

 

When running a Star Wars game, you'll probably want to write up a "Force System" equivalent to how you'd write up a magic system when running Fantasy Hero.  

[tkdguy]

A campaign where all the PCs are Jedi may be fun. I'd get rid of that stupid "Rule of Two" for Sith, however.

[L. Marcus]

One master, one apprentice. But what of the journeymen ...?

[tkdguy]

Some thoughts on Jedi on another board, may be useful here.

[TheDarkness]

A little cross pollination never hurt:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/94037-star-wars-hero/page-5

[TheDarkness]

Some thoughts on Jedi on another board, may be useful here.

I like their points on there. Although one thing I tend to disagree with.

 

If you accept that there is a genetic component to force sensitivity, then midichlorians are a perfectly sensible thing.

 

However, there is another interpretation one could make. That the force, for a time, clusters around certain lines for its own reasons, and at other times, does not, and thus has no genetic component.

 

I prefer the latter interpretation. It dodges all sorts of dodgy stuff, and prevents making really too many damn Skywalker stories.

 

As far as that threads view on the jedi order as a much looser order, I totally like that. The fact that the jedi are repeatedly trying to rebuild the same thing that seemed to cause them problems in the past seems a little insane. Oh, taking Annakin away from his mother at a formative age didn't work out well for you? Well, best try again with this Solo kid. We'll get this parenting thing down until we're way better than regular parents, we're jedi after...oops, dead younglings again. Ooooookay, back to formula.

[Storyarama]

Keep in mind that the prequel trilogy was the equivalent of an all- or most-Jedi game, while the original trilogy was the equivalent of a more rounded campaign.  

 

When running a Star Wars game, you'll probably want to write up a "Force System" equivalent to how you'd write up a magic system when running Fantasy Hero.  

A "Force system" sounds too...stifling. After all, throughout various old canon (pre-disney) materials, you would see Jedi using different Force powers than the standard ones presented in the movies. So, I think a "Force system" might stifle a lot of creativity from the players as they create and grow their characters over time. Sure, traditionally Jedi couldn't use The Force to grow larger or smaller, but in a RPG campaign, why couldn't they be allowed to do so as long as they keep it within reasonable boundaries, such as one or two levels of Growth or Shrinking? It allows the player to customize their Jedi, while still retaining the flavor of the genre.

[Chris Goodwin]

A "Force system" sounds too...stifling. After all, throughout various old canon (pre-disney) materials, you would see Jedi using different Force powers than the standard ones presented in the movies. So, I think a "Force system" might stifle a lot of creativity from the players as they create and grow their characters over time. Sure, traditionally Jedi couldn't use The Force to grow larger or smaller, but in a RPG campaign, why couldn't they be allowed to do so as long as they keep it within reasonable boundaries, such as one or two levels of Growth or Shrinking? It allows the player to customize their Jedi, while still retaining the flavor of the genre.

 

That's up to the GM.  Really what a magic system, or in our case a Force system, does is gets everyone on the same page about what the Force is expected to be able to do in the game.  

 

For instance, I would say absolutely not to Growth or Shrinking as Force powers, because that totally does not fit with the source material.  In my Force System document I would make sure to outline that.  Other GMs may, and are free to, disagree with me, and are free to allow those Powers in their games.  

 

Edit to add:  A Force system or magic system document doesn't have to be a set of edicts from on high.  It can be the result of discussion between players and GM on how they want it to function in their games.  The game has to be fun for the players as well.  

[Christopher R Taylor]

I would strongly suggest anyone doing a Star Wars game start out with the basic concept that all the major characters in the movies who use the force are either extremely well trained and have much experience using it (Count Dooku, Emperor, etc), or are described as being "very strong in the force" or some other superlative.

 

Thus, they are not the average character type, they are extraordinary NPCs that the PCs will not be able to emulate, not without spending a lot of xps.  So you're not going to start out throwing lightning and telekinesing 500 ton objects around.

[Chris Goodwin]

I would strongly suggest anyone doing a Star Wars game start out with the basic concept that all the major characters in the movies who use the force are either extremely well trained and have much experience using it (Count Dooku, Emperor, etc), or are described as being "very strong in the force" or some other superlative.

 

Thus, they are not the average character type, they are extraordinary NPCs that the PCs will not be able to emulate, not without spending a lot of xps.  So you're not going to start out throwing lightning and telekinesing 500 ton objects around.

 

I totally agree.  I have enough experience in running games with assumption clash that IMO getting everyone on the same page is mandatory.  Otherwise, when I say the game is 150 total/50 matching, thinking the players are going to be creating characters like the Trio as of the beginning of episode IV, I guarantee someone will be trying to figure out how to build episode III Yoda on 150 total points.  

[dmjalund]

I guarantee someone will be trying to figure out how to build episode III Yoda on 150 total points.

 

Do, or do not. There is no try

[Chris Goodwin]

Going back to this...

 

A "Force system" sounds too...stifling. After all, throughout various old canon (pre-disney) materials, you would see Jedi using different Force powers than the standard ones presented in the movies. So, I think a "Force system" might stifle a lot of creativity from the players as they create and grow their characters over time. Sure, traditionally Jedi couldn't use The Force to grow larger or smaller, but in a RPG campaign, why couldn't they be allowed to do so as long as they keep it within reasonable boundaries, such as one or two levels of Growth or Shrinking? It allows the player to customize their Jedi, while still retaining the flavor of the genre.

 

More to the point.  Are there "Dark Side Powers" and "Light Side Powers"?  How does a Force user get pulled to the Dark Side?  What happens when a Jedi tries to Force Choke someone (Luke did it in Return of the Jedi!) or throw Force Lightning?  

 

How does the Dark Side emerge mechanically?  Is it a Transform?  Does it mess with a PC's Complications/Disadvantages?  Does it turn a PC into an NPC?  

 

What power level are Force users assumed to begin at?  Luke in Episode IV?  Anakin in Episode II?  III?

 

Do PCs pay points for normal weapons/armor/equipment?  Do Jedi pay points for their lightsaber?

 

What about non-Force Powers?  Things like Boba Fett's jet pack?  Lobot's head communicator?  Cybernetics?

 

How does the lightsaber work?  More powerful sword?  Destructo-beam in a pocket?  

 

These are all questions that should be answered by a GM, with or without input from the players, before you start the game.  Hence the need for a Force System document.

[TheDarkness]

I think the force powers are waaaay simpler to do from the movies than from the EU. In the movies, we can only speculate that there is but one power that might be a sith power, lightning, and that is merely based on the fact that only the sith ever use it. Every other power is used by both in the movies.

 

As for switching to the dark side, I really think that is way simpler from the movies as well. It is, literally, from negative emotion, even desperation, using this negative emotion to boost one's powers. I really think the easiest build for this is giving a boost power that could be used to boost most of the jedi combat powers, to be a jedi, you seek never to use, one that, as a disadvantage, gives you points in a complication progressively(first use, one point, second, two, third, four), Temptation of the Dark Side(X or less). If you really want, allow that complication to also add points to the build with the rule that they cannot be used to increase whatever stat works against Temptation of the Dark Side checks, I'd assume EGO.

 

This models both the effect, and the result fairly exactly. More power in the short term, but a loss of agency to one's negative emotions until they subsume you.

 

I would imagine in most games, that would spell NPC land for that character. If running a group of evils, I'm not sure the non-sith jedi would be in the game to begin with. One could certainly run a sith game that was a political intrigue game of cutthroat.

[Doc Democracy]

My thoughts were that force powers ran from an END Battery that recovered by drawing on the Force - if you were blocked from the Force for whatever reason (drugs or technology) then you would run out of juice and be unable to do anything.

 

You could immediately recover your whole END Battery by drawing on the dark side.  That had a side effect though - it was a cumulative effect transform that added bad complications to the character - psych limits, addictions, etc.  You could 'pay off'/heal a cumulative effect before it transformed you by doing heroic deeds etc but once transformed it was far more difficult to get transformed back.

 

I also had the Dark Side be available for power boosts - your 20STR TK would become 30STR etc - anytime you wanted it but it would attract the same cumulative transform as a side effect.

 

As such the effects of the Dark Side would be different for every character - once the cumulative transform was enough a change would be made.  It would then begin again from zero but the character would be darker.  I would have liked the existence of a transformation to make the dark side more tempting - additional powers, more END as well as instant REC and even bigger boosts (obviously all accompanied by heftier transforms).

 

That game never happened and I never got the chance to playtest it though.  :-(

 

Doc

[Christopher R Taylor]

I always saw the Dark Side as just a short cut, you gained power faster, but it didn't make you more powerful.  So you could learn quicker by skipping the discipline and restraint learning parts but end up the same place.  It feels more powerful because it is exhilarating and you can act without self limitations, but isn't more powerful at all.  The ethical concepts were as  I understood them the temptations of power.   Imagine being one of a few thousand people in the universe who can read minds, use telekinesis, see distant places, sense danger, have faster reactions, fight blind, and even have everything in life just a bit easier because the force guides you.  The temptations to misuse that would be very strong.

[massey]

Luke:  Is the Dark Side stronger?

 

Yoda:  No.  Faster, easier, more seductive.

[Chris Goodwin]

One idea I'm poking around at is for there to be two different Power Skills: The Force (EGO-based) and "Alternate Path" To The Force (PRE-based).  EGO would also cost 2 per point; PRE would stay at 1 per point.  Force-based Powers would have a -3/4 "Force-Based" Limitation, which would include RSR and Side Effects.  It's a composite Limitation, maybe even effectively a Variable Limitation with special GM fiat, but it's either RSR at -1 per 10 points with -1/4 Side Effects (The Force) if you fail your roll or RSR at -1 per 20 points with -1/2 Side Effects that always occur ("Alternate Path").  The Side Effect is the Lure of the Dark Side.  

 

I just started mine, for a potential Star Wars Hero game, so it's definitely not playtested and a work in progress.  

[Christopher R Taylor]

Personally I'm not sure I buy Lucas' absolute dichotomy, that is I like the "gray" force users in the extended universe offerings who don't adhere to the rigid code of the Jedi but can manage to not become a monster, either.

[Doc Democracy]

Luke:  Is the Dark Side stronger?

 

Yoda:  No.  Faster, easier, more seductive.

Yeah, in a story that is fine, the biggest temptation for gamers is that quick burst of power.... :-)

[Ninja-Bear]

Personally I'm not sure I buy Lucas' absolute dichotomy, that is I like the "gray" force users in the extended universe offerings who don't adhere to the rigid code of the Jedi but can manage to not become a monster, either.

This is one thing that Lucas still kept and I wholeheartly agree with. I dislike Grey Jedi.

[Nolgroth]

Personally I'm not sure I buy Lucas' absolute dichotomy, that is I like the "gray" force users in the extended universe offerings who don't adhere to the rigid code of the Jedi but can manage to not become a monster, either.

 

I was so unimpressed with the dividing line being Passion vs. Dispassion that I had to develop my own head canon* to even try to play with it. Still wasn't able to get past it.

 

 

 

* A variant of the Living Force theory in that the Force is actually semi-sentient and craves emotions. That's why it feeds into the impassioned Sith, giving them temporary boosts but also setting their fate towards a tragic end as the Force demands more and more from them in terms of placing themselves in danger and fueling their emotional drives. Once somebody embraces the Dark side and gives in to the temptation to use it, they start the cosmic swirly of self-destruction. The Jedi have just learned to tap into the Force in a steadier way.

[Ninja-Bear]

Yeah, in a story that is fine, the biggest temptation for gamers is that quick burst of power.... :-)

Thats the fun for the GM, to tempt your players!

[TheDarkness]

This is one thing that Lucas still kept and I wholeheartly agree with. I dislike Grey Jedi.

I tend to agree. I think the issue with the jedi is not their philosophical basis, but their execution of that basis.

 

This relates to the current discussion on sith and jedi and what distinguishes them. Of course, most of the source material does not give a full accounting of jedi philosophy, so there is room for different views.

 

However, a lot of it does agree with one aspect. The jedi seek to follow the force, the sith use emotion to attain power in using the force.

 

This actually ties in with Lucas' Zen/Taoist influence in what the jedi is, and the concept of wuwei, or, translated literally, non-action.

 

The jedi and the sith, if we may risk the no true scot fallacy a bit here, are not, in fact two groups whose main feature is that they use the force for what they feel is most important. The true sith certainly is, but the true jedi is not, the true jedi practices selflessness, and therefure, should be untrusting of their own feelings on what should happen.

 

This is largely wuwei, which, in fact, is actually not a dictum saying don't do anything, but that action should not come from human preferences, but from observing and understanding and seeing what is the will of the Tao, for lack of a better term. Taoism has a huge amount of practices all related to doing this, and preventing a confusion between seeing what is the Tao and what is mere ego.

 

In the movies, the greatest sith do not actually show greater power than the greatest jedi. It is, in fact, Yoda and Kenobi who, in the end, prove more powerful than the Emperor and Vader, because through their actions, they destroy the other two. They pursued the will of the force, whereas the other two pursued power. Vader was clearly not talking about force chokes and pushes and lightsabres when he claimed the power of the force was far greater than the Death Star. By the end of the movie, we see that he was right, not because Luke used the force, but because Luke was able to be there because of all these things. The Will of the Force.

 

Now, the prequel trilogy has the jedi completely unable to view their situation outside of their preference that the situation not exist. They don't want Annakin, and guarantee he will be trained. They don't engage his training except by doing what they've always done, and so discovered that this case was different. Their surliness was almost constant, and pretty much always over things not being how they wanted them. They took almost nothing as being a lesson from the force, and learned almost nothing from it until the end. Philosophically, Qui-Gon was undoubtedly the closest to being a true jedi in this, and he even took his death as a lesson.

 

This is the problem with grey jedi, imo. The problem with selflessness is not in the philosophy, but in its execution. The solution to that problem is more experience and knowledge and calm, not more ego.

 

The issue with the jedi order has parallels with monastic orders in China; by the time foreign powers moved in, there soon became a sense that they had removed themselves from life. Too many buddhists monastics were seen as not actually practicing compassion as much as practicing empty ritual. Reformers in the twentieth century, especially those connected to Taixu, laid out what would become an influential response, which was to reassert the old core of Chinese Buddhism, that to attain true compassion, one had to practice compassion as an act, not a feeling, and see how in each case it is practiced, it has flaws in the application that tie back to the self's idea of what compassion is or how it can be expressed, and this should be pursued until one sees all one's own artifice, and still continued, lest the compassionate one then create new flaws.

 

The grey jedi, as a philosophy, are likewise not philosophically compelling as soon as one goes beyond them just not buying the jedi's dogmatic way they relate to people as being outside of the jedi's own claimed philosophy(which is true). This is a universe in which there is no distinction between people, they are all as connected as the heart is to the brain, by the force. The rules of this universe are that there is never a distinct self because all are literally connected at all times. Even the sith, if we are to use the movie depictions(and not just Palpatine's words, as he lies several times about the extent of his force powers), do not become more individual, but lose track of all parts of their selves that do not seem to directly fuel their force use.

 

In that light, jedi, the competent ones, seem to become more what they are, sith almost completely cease to be anything but hate.

 

It doesn't help that a lot of the words used to reference the jedi as a monastic order are more often than not misunderstandings of eastern concepts, and we don't know whether the misunderstanding is the right definition in Star Wars, or whether it's just word soup. In Eastern traditions, selflessness, the extinguishing of self, is not what most western readers think it to be. It is the ending of what we erroneously think to be our selves, but which is really just knee jerk responses based off of little real observation and contemplation based on that observation. The traditions do not, then contend, that there is no nature to what is left, but that its true nature is laid bare.

 

Grey jedi would be to assume half way is somehow virtuous and has merit. If I understand grey jedi well enough, which I probably don't.

 

However, if one wants a force user who has identity, yet is good, and is unwilling to bend to the dogmatism of the jedi order, that would be Qui-Gon.